I'm a 31 year old American expat living in Oslo, Norway, with my bulldog, Ada, and my husband, Johannes. My interests include interaction design, especially information architecture, philosophy of mind and ethics, cognitive psychology, sociobiology, feminism, yoga, fat acceptance, knitting, pottery, and cooking.Go ahead and call me a racist.
I’m closing comments on this post because of spam, not because I don’t want any further discussion.
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Recently there’s been a heated (ha ha) discussion on a few blogs about one black woman’s experience of having a white chick (hereafter referred to as WC) ask her whether or not she got hotter in the sun because her skin is dark. My first thought on reading the set-up of Piny’s post on Feministe about discussing of Nubian’s original post was to think, “Hmmm, good question”. Piny then proceeded to call the inquisitive WC stupid, and to slaughter for having the gall to ask Nubian this question in the first place. Boy, did I feel like a rube.
As I continued to read the discussion on Feministe and blac(k)ademic, however, I started getting pissed off.
First of all, if your nick is Nubian, you’re kind of setting yourself up for questions like these. You’re identifying yourself primarily by your ethnic heritage, after all. Granted, Nubian’s experience happened IRL, so presumedly the white woman knew Nubian as Kourtney and not Nubian. Still.
Nubian inferred from WC’s question that WC is trying to “‘other’ [her] into some kind of sub-human anomaly, whose body functions automatically differently than whites, and in such a negative way”. WTF?!? Nothing in WC’s question implied anything of the sort. Of course I don’t know what was going on in WC’s brain when she asked Nubian this question, but there is no racism implied in the question itself. “It’s a sensible question, the kind of thing a four-year-old might ask Mommy”, as one commenter on Feministe put it. And as a matter of fact, Nubian is other, at least other than WC. I’m other, too. I have different experiences from thin people, and black people have different experiences from white people. We’re all “other” from someone else, and wondering about our differences in no way implies that our own experiences are the default. What the fuck is the matter with acknowledging these differences and trying to learn about the “other”? It’s crap like this that causes the alienation of one group of people from another.
Piny says that “there is a point at which each person must take responsibility for their ignorance.” Sure, yeah. It would seem to be the case, however, that that was precisely what WC was trying to do. But daring to ask an “other” person a question about her experience apparently makes you seem ridiculous–you’re making an ass out of yourself by trying to take responsibility for your ignorance, in this way, according to Piny. Apparently if we’re curious about the experiences of an “other” we should do anything but ask questions of them. Wikipedia and Google were suggested as solutions to this conundrum. OK, but:
Piny goes on to say that “while education may well be the problem of the non-privileged group, it is not their responsibility.” Yes, it is in fact the responsibility, at least partially, of the non-privileged group to clear up any misconceptions others have about them–they’re the only ones who know what the misconceptions are! Ideally people should be accepted regardless of their differences, but this is not an ideal world. It’s also the case that the path to acceptance includes precisely the kind of enlightenment Piny would have minorities shirk. Michelle makes this point beautifully in our discussion of the relevance of busting myths about fat and health to the SA movement. So i wonder, if it’s not the responsibility of the “other” to educate the ignorant about their experiences, who is it exactly that’s supposed to be writing the Wikipedia articles?
Nubian, of course, should not be required to be the sole custodian of the task of enlightening the world about black people. One poster on her blog had some amusing suggestions for a comeback:
- Q: “since you are darker, do you get hotter?”
- A: “I don’t know. Since you are whiter, do you get colder?”
- A: “I am hotter because I am darker, yes. Oh you mean temperature!”
- A: “I’ll let you know next time I come round as a white person.”
IOW, there are other ways to think about and defuse the situation than assuming a racist motivation on the part of the questioner.
Some commenters said that if you are ignorant about this kind of issue, you don’t have enough non-white friends. Uh, well, affirmative action doesn’t apply to my choice of friends. I’ve never chosen my friends because of their skin color–I never even thought about my friends’ “race” until I got older and learned that “race” is an issue. When I think about it, though, I’ve actually had a shitload of “ethnic” friends in my life (and no, this is not a case of “I’m not racist–I’ve got a black friend!”), so in my case, at least, my ignorance isn’t due to a lack of dark-skinned friends. I never thought about the skin color/temperature question until just now. (I guess a lot of participants in this debate think that makes me stupid.) So the hapless WC might have been guilty of showing a lack of social skills by asking a mere acquaintance a question that acquaintance felt was rude, but it’s not necessarily the case that the white woman didn’t have enough “friends of color”.
I should also mention that being from Oklahoma, there were very few black people around when I was growing up, and few of those that lived in Tulsa lived in my part of the city. There are a lot of states in the US in which a person might grow up without having any dark-skinned friends due to probability as opposed to racism.
A commenter on Nubian’s blog said that “As these white people haven’t had any form of interaction with black people, they can be extremely insulting and tactless when speaking to them.” Apparently everything a white person says to a non-white person must be evaluated in light of “the larger sociopolitical context of America’s nasty racist history”, according to another commenter on Nubian’s blog. First, I get annoyed at the idea that we somehow are supposed to speak to different groups of people differently, and not just with the care expected of polite discourse in general. Second, how the fuck am I supposed to know how not to be “insulting and tactless” towards “other” people without talking to them, and thus in the process being “insulting and tactless” towards them? I can’t win–according to this logic, there’s no way possible for me not to be “insulting and tactless” toward the “others” at some point in time. Again, cue the issues about alienation and responsibility for enlightenment. Because of the fact that I have always lived in areas with few black people, I don’t know much about how their experiences might differ from mine. I know that many of them get easily offended about race issues, however (as demonstrated in the posts in question), so I get nervous about even talking to them at all, for fear of insulting them or being tactless. Can a WC get a break?
IMO, the best solution lies in the principle of charity. It’s a bad fucking idea to assume the worst in your interactions with other people. As a fat person, that’s something I learned a long time ago. I might give someone a strange look were they to ask me whether my fat caused me to get hotter, but I wouldn’t take it as an indication that the questioner considered me “sub-human”. Christ on a crutch. Of course, I’ll get slaughtered now for daring to compare my experience as a fat woman to the experience of being a black woman.
The commenter so concerned with us “insulting and tactless” white people goes on to suggest that we “need some sort of education system (maybe incorporated into the school curriculum) which answers all these kinds of questions. There needs to be some kind of an educational forum where all people who are genuinely interested in people of other races can ask questions without being condemned, and can be given accurate information, which should serve to dispel any senseless assumptions they may have of other races.” Yes! I think that would be awesome. It’s why I took anthropology in college, and why I’m interested in feminism, fat acceptance, class issues, race issues, and sociology in general. But we have to get the information for these classes from somewhere. Which means that each group of “others” has to take responsibility for providing it, without getting their panties in a wad. They’re the only ones who can relate their experiences, after all.
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ETA: There’s an awesome comment over at Pandagon that perfectly spells out my frustration with this debate.
First of all, if your nick is Nubian, you’re kind of setting yourself up for questions like these. You’re identifying yourself primarily by your ethnic heritage, after all
A white woman physically grabbing you, *and* asking that colossally bizarre question, has nothing to do with her online username.
I’ve had white people randomly fondling my hair for over 35 years. I’ve even stopped wearing hairstyles that i really liked because complete and utter white strangers felt compelled to run their fingers over it, and then get insulted (kind of like you are here) at the idea that i was angered by it… because, aren’t i supposed to be so thrilled at the idea that they are even curious taht being treated like an petting zoo thrills me?
No.
I know that many of them get easily offended about race issues, however (as demonstrated in the posts in question), so I get nervous about even talking to them at all, for fear of insulting them or being tactless. Can a WC get a break?
What I want to know is, why cant you educate yourself? There are countless books, articles, readings about people of color and race. Why cant you read them? There are committed groups of white people who are working to educate OTHER white people on dealing with race and racism. Why aren’t you talking to them?
Which means that each group of “others” has to take responsibility for providing it, without getting their panties in a wad.
POC are not. responsible. for. your. ignorance. And as long as you dismiss legitimate annoyance, frustration, and rage as wadded panties….
Yeah, that’s what I said.
Those people are incredibly rude, and you have every right to be angry. I’d get angry if people randomly fondled me, too. I would feel shame if I acted in such a way, and I assume other people would feel ashamed, too. Acting insulted is most likely a cover for their shame.
I’m not, however, insulted by Nubian’s reaction to her experience. I find it frustrating and unfortunate. I think it’s sad when people make assumptions about other people’s actions and then proceed to get pissed off by those unverified assumptions. It makes me prone to ranting. That’s not the kind of world I want to live in. It makes it so much harder for people to relate to each other. Why do you want to live your life always assuming the worst? I think “why do you ask?” is always a good way to get a feel for someone’s intentions in asking a question. Helps you avoid ulcers, too.
I know it’s the case that white people used to display non-white people as curiosities, yes, as if they were animals in a zoo. This demonstrated the white people’s beliefs that the non-white people were less than human. Do you think it makes sense to assume that the majority of people who have touched your hair hold this belief? Maybe they’re just interested in something that’s different. Maybe they’re just curious. Have you asked them about their intentions? People are always interested in things that are unfamiliar. I’m reminded here of how Western tourists get treated in China, for example.
Remember, induction is not foolproof. And the exceptions to the rule under which you’re operating are individual people that you’re dealing with directly.
Perhaps I should require that commenters on my blog possess a firm grasp of the rules of punctuation before I allow them to post. There are countless books and articles about punctuation. Why can’t you read them? I know for a fact that punctuation is covered in English classes. Haven’t you taken a class in English?
And no, that’s not me resorting to insulting your lack of punctuation skills as an ad hominem attack. OK, maybe just a little. But the point remains. I want to know what people think–what you think–about my ideas. I’m not interested in communicating only with people who meet my standards of education, not about this subject, anyway. See, I am educating myself right now. By reading Piny’s post on Feministe and Nubian’s post in her blog, and by writing this diatribe on my own blog and therefore subjecting my views to public criticism. So when you come to my blog to respond to my post, I’m not going to write you off just because you can’t punctuate. It might not be easy to avoid writing you off, and it might go against my instincts, but I’m going to make my best effort. I’m certainly not going to assume that you’re willfully ignoring the rules of punctuation in order to piss me off. This isn’t a punctuation contest, after all. I hope others will treat my faux pas with the same generosity. I am curious, and I believe that you want to educate me.
I live in a new city in a new country now. Twenty percent of the people who live in this city are immigrants, most of them from North Africa and the Middle East, cultures with which I have no previous experience whatsoever. The area of the city I live in now has a huge number of immigrants, and I’m learning more about their cultures and countries as I get to know my neighbors, both by talking to them and reading about their cultures online. As an immigrant myself, I’m really interested in the issues affecting them, especially how their experiences as brown immigrants differ from my experience as an immigrant who looks more or less like a native. Should I have to read a book before talking to them and asking about their experiences? It seems to me that that’s what you’re implying that I should have to do. I make my best effort not to piss anyone off based on my cultural knowledge, and they’ve got to accept that some people are ignorant, and not necessarily willfully so. If someone gets pissed off by my behavior, it’s their job to either correct me or learn to deal with their anger. It’s my job to accept their correction with grace and absorb the information they’re providing me. Go ahead and get pissed off, but I’m going to argue violently with you if you think that when I’m operating with good intentions I should be punished for overstepping a boundary I didn’t know existed.
Nubian can choose whether or not she feels like educating any particular individual at any given time. No, it’s not her responsibility to educate any particular individual. No one has to be the spokesperson for her particular subgroup. But all people are responsible for their own reactions to others’ ignorance. Your reaction is the only thing in this world you have a modicum of control over. That is your responsibility.
…then what?
Let it be known, then, that I am hereby educated. God fucking forbid I try to discuss how my experiences might differ from a black person’s experiences. I can read books, blogs, and the like, but I’d damn well better not ask anyone directly if I want to avoid offending them.
No one’s saying people should discuss how they see the world differently (except maybe piny). The point is, it’s racist to grab someone you know marginally and ask that bone-headed question. It’s arguably problematic to ask people you don’t know well much of anything.
If you’ve got a friend, someone you have a relationship with, the context changes and the question could probably get asked and answered with out much heat. You’ll note that Nubian didn’t hand the woman her head. That’s all been virtual.
The thing that anonymous is reacting to, as far as I can tell, is the amazing rudeness of some white people with regards to race. This repeated rudeness, invasion of personal space, and flat-out nosiness does get on your nerves after a while.
Sarah, the $64,000 issue, for me, is that we weren’t there. If Kortney felt like the white woman was doing this in a racist way, then as far as I’m concerned the white woman was doing this in a racist way, period, end of story. Whether it sounds like she was to us based on the third-person account isn’t entirely relevant.
Cheers,
TH
I was going to comment on the original post, but I pretty much said what I had to say over at Feministe. This caught my eye, though, and raised a number of other questions for me:
are immigrants, most of them from North Africa and the Middle East, cultures with which I have no previous experience whatsoever. The area of the city I live in now has a huge number of immigrants, and I’m learning more about their cultures and countries as I get to know my neighbors, both by talking to them and reading about their cultures online. As an immigrant myself, I’m really interested in the issues affecting them, especially how their experiences as brown immigrants differ from my experience as an immigrant who looks more or less like a native.
My first thought… “Oh, she looks Native American?” But then, of course, I put it in context with the rest of the post and realized that, in the view of the writer “looks like a native” means like a white American. This called to mind an online friend in Serbia who was upset over the portrayal of some Serbians in a movie or something - “we look just like Americans!”
So, that led me to wonder about the portrayal of the US in foreign film and media. In US media the default is white, but there have been small strides over the past couple of decades to present a more realistic view of … well if not the full range of Americans, at least a few black, latino or asians. Are not even these portrayed in foreign media as Americans? Or, if they are, are they always portrayed as some sort of immigrants to the US, as opposed to the “native” white americans? Or is that some sort of shorthand for looking more or less like the top dog in the power structure in the US?
There, a stupid question to go along with the stupid question asked of Nubian. I do actually want to know, though.
OK, I feel so stupid for not realizing this before, but here\’s the problem–here\’s the reason a bunch of intelligent, reasonable people can have such a heated discussion about this incident: we don\’t have a common definition for what a racist is. Nobody\’s debating that WC lacks social skills. Some people think the question itself is stupid, although I don\’t. that\’s not the issue, though. Is the question racist just because Kourtney perceived it as racist? She has a right to get offended, regardless, for whatever reason. I\’m not questioning that.
I got into this same problem with the word \”feminist\” not too long ago. I found that unless we can agree on a common definition of the word in question, we\’re just going to be talking past each other. Arguments aren\’t productive if the parties involved have no common ground.
I vote for the definition of \”racist\” being \”someone who discriminates on the basis of color\”. If we can agree with that–and the subject is most definitely up for debate–then we can discuss whether or not what happened was actually racist. But I refuse to agree with the idea that something is something just because someone says it is. That\’s arguing by appealing to authority, and it\’s a fallacy.
I am American, but I’m living in Norway now. I meant that I look like a native Norwegian.
Which is a little different from looking like an American, or a Native American (although that is actually part of my genetic heritage).
And I don’t see anything the least bit stupid about the question. I hadn’t thought about it before now. The unfortunate thing is that since Norway is such a little country (only 4 million people or so), it hasn’t got a lot of its own media. When Americans are intentionally depicted in Norwegian media, it’s usually not a pretty thing–they’re shown as fat, eating messily all the time, maybe dressed as lumberjacks or in jogging suits, wearing too much makeup, bright colors with wild prints, and gaudy jewelry, often speaking with a thick Texas drawl or an exaggerated NY accent (read Jewish, of course), etc. And stupid, ignorant, and filled with hubris. You get the idea. I cannot recall even one time seeing a non-white depicted as an American in Norwegian media. Most Norwegian media concentrates in Norwegians, though. Most of the media here is American, as a matter fact, so I guess Norwegians don’t feel the need to give Americans any more screentime in their own media than absolutely necessary.
Your equation of grammatical errors with racism would provide someone with more time on their hands and a greater sense of drama with an awful lot of material… I’ve had plenty of composition courses. What I was was furious, which I guess adversely impacted my grammatical expression. However, your response makes it clear that there was little to be gained from commenting anyway.
You seem intent on absolving this woman, and people that act like her, of any responsibility for the sense of entitlement, lack of boundaries, and ignorant racism inherent in their actions. In fact, you even seem to think it is the responsibility of people of color to just ‘deal with it.” Why can’t white people ‘deal with’ the fact that able to inflict insult and injury with such careless insouciance?
Do you think it makes sense to assume that the majority of people who have touched your hair hold this belief?
I dont care what their intent is. Its innappropriate behavior under any circumstances, and intent *does not* excuse it.
…then what?
Then you’re going to have a very hard time with the learning you claim to want to do.
Oh gee, talk about making assumptions!
So sorry… one of these days I really will get over my “we are the world” frame of reference 
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That’s interesting, about what portrayal there is of Americans on Norweigan TV. I think Americans (Or rather, USA’ans I guess) are not popular in Norway… I wonder if the coverage was different before 2000? Also, now I’m wondering if, in countries where the majority is non-white, if the US programming there (what sort of people they show, etc) is somehow more targeted to the demographics.
On your other point:
Of course, now you need to define “discriminates” too,
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It’s a difficult question to answer, in some ways, without knowing the prior relationship between Kortney and WC. From the sounds of it, it was just a “hi, how are you” in passing type thing, but I don’t know. Possibly WC thought to herself, “well, I’ve seen Kortney around before and she’s a nice black person, I’ll just ask her” with no intent of harm, but also no basis for thinking that it was perfectly okay to ask this of a relative stranger. And especially to compare her to a black shirt or to black material (”does it wash off?”).
My first thought was that it was racist, I suppose mostly because of the assumptions and comparisons. My second thought is still that. I have been in situations before… one, a group of women (all my friends for years), mostly white, myself and another black and latina and the conversation turned to shaving. One mentioned that she hated shaving, was thinking of permanent removal, because it was such a hassle shaving her knees. (Me…you shave your knees!?). Others mentioned having to shave their breast area (you shave your BREASTS!?).
We all had a good laugh and they enjoyed shocking me, (as a fairly hairless person I’d never heard of such things) and everyone riffed off of the conversation.. what about this and what about that? Now, if in the context of that conversation, with friends, any of them had asked me just about anything at all related to our differences and similarities there would have been no offense taken, because this is what we were all discussing (to great hilarity).
But for someone to, in the context of you just going about your business being you, suddenly decide that not only can you tell them what Black People are feeling, but also you can tell them what Black People are feeling relative to what White People are feeling and oh, by the way, do you react like black material does - this strikes me as a bit beyond insensitive or rude questioning, and more into instant dehumanization and yes, racism.
Me, years later I’ll see white women I know casually, in passing, and while I might wonder if they too shave their breasts, I would never think to ask them, and especially not under the assumption that they could answer for all white women.
Nanette:
Ain’t that the truth. My husband, who is also following this discussion, mentioned that it seemed like all of the posters were seeing this as a black and white issue. I’m not sure if I agree with him, but it’s obvious that this is an incredibly complex issue. It has so many different facets. Is the meaning in the intent or the perception? How do we define an abstract term? Is it possible to define anything objectively? Can we settle on a definition, and who decides when we’ve done so? I find it absolutely fascinating.
And it seems like everyone agrees that this chick could use a scholarship to charm school. So could anyone who invades another’s personal space, not to mention anyone who purports to tell someone else what that someone else is feeling. Everyone needs to learn that there’s a place and time for everything.
FWIW, I know that some women shave their knees. Like every three days. It seems like punishment to me, regularly shearing away a part of your body in order to fit in. I don’t shave at all, but then, like you, I’m pretty hairless. Some women actually pluck their breast hairs. I blame the patriarchy.
I don’t think there’s much point in debating anymore whether or not the WC’s actions were racist. Everyone keeps repeating the same things and arguing past each other.
Anonymous:
Yeah, I knee I was going to get called out on that one. It may be an insensitive comparison, but the principle remains.
I agree. Because you didn’t seem to have anything to say other than what others have written repeatedly in the comments. Repeating something over and over, yelling louder each time, isn’t going to convince anyone of anything. Like someone else on the comments said, it’s likely to make the yelled-at dig in even more stubbornly. I want to analyze the issue, not hear people repeat something over and over like a broken record.
Wrong. I have repeatedly stated that this woman did show a lack of social skills in acting the way she did.
Ignorant, yes. Racism? Why is it racist? That’s the issue at hand. You don’t start a debate by assuming what you want to prove.
Good question. White people damn well ought to be able to deal with that. I never said people shouldn’t take responsibility for their actions. Everyone has to “deal with” the reactions of others. Regardless of their position on the color continuum. Regardless of anything.
I think this is an extremely important point, and a really hard lesson to learn, one that I’m still struggling with. People say, “I can’t deal with this”. But you’re dealing with it by simply making that statement. The world still turns. You have no choice but to pass through time. You have to deal with everything the world throws at you. How are you going to do that? Trite as this may sound, life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. I’m not going to give you pity if you insist upon squirting the damn juice into your eyes.
I have covered that point many times. My issue is not with whether their behavior is appropriate–I definitely agree with you. My issue is with the productivity of your reaction.
As for excuses and reasons, I’m not sure what I think about that at all.
Actually, I’m learning a lot. I’m having a ball, as a matter of fact. No joke.
[…] And from a response post at Too Much Information: Piny says that “there is a point at which each person must take responsibility for their ignorance.” Sure, yeah. It would seem to be the case, however, that that was precisely what WC was trying to do. But daring to ask an “other” person a question about her experience apparently makes you seem ridiculous–you’re making an ass out of yourself by trying to take responsibility for your ignorance, in this way, according to Piny. Apparently if we’re curious about the experiences of an “other” we should do anything but ask questions of them. Wikipedia and Google were suggested as solutions to this conundrum. OK, but: […]
You’re taking a very narrow view of the question (I’m trying to phrase that in as non-inflammatory a manner as I can on this little sleep). There’s a whole long history of treating black people as other, as different — one used to be an exhibit at the Bronx Zoo. Today, in fact, is the anniversary of a significant advance in treating black people as human*, but even today, almost 150 years on, we still haven’t gotten up to “fully human.” We (and I mean us honkies collectively, not necessarily you personally) have merely advanced to treating black people as strange, weird, and exotic humans rather than strange, weird, and exotic creatures. Against that background, the question carried a lot of baggage around treating white as “normal” and other colors as “abnormal.” or of treating white as the standard.
*Three, in fact, since Wikipedia tells me that on June 19, 1862, Congress banned slavery in the territories, and this was also the day in 1870 that the Confederacy was dissolved.
Yes, it was. Oh, the coverage itself hasn’t changed _that_ much. The attitude among people has, though. NRK (the national broadcasting company, owned by the government) is still pretty subtle about it, but they’ve become (in my opinion, anyway) more critical of the US of late. While the invasion in Iraq was still undecided, they showed movies like “Wag the dog” and “Dr. Strangelove, or how I learned to stop worrying and learned to love the bomb”.
Anyway, my impression is that the US is not exactly popular in Europe in general right now. Mostly, that’s directed at the administration, though a lot of people don’t really seem to see the difference.
I’d ask whether this woman is usually behaving that way towards others as well, regardless of colour. If she tends to ask stupid questions (and yes, since there’s no way for a person, regardless of colour, to know whether or not he or she is hotter, it’s a stupid question), grabbing people physically, and ask questions in insensitive ways, regardless of who she’s talking to, I’d say it’s not racist.
In my opinion, racism is an attitude, that one race is better than another. Pointing out that there are biological differences between the races (even if it’s just colour) is not. That’s a fact. That said, I’d say that logically, they _would_ be hotter, since darker colours tend to reflect less heat that lighter colours. That is certainly true for hair, at least…
Granted, it’s not a question I’d have asked someone I didn’t know well, but a lot of people ask questions, often not very well considered ones too, of people who’re different. That’s not tied to race. I’ve heard similarily stupid questions asked of disabled people, people with glasses, people with dark hair compared to light hair, small people, tall people, in short, stupid questions about most physical (visible) differences, not just skin colour.
Ina:
A lot of people have been saying that, but I don’t think it’s the case. This is what I wrote about that point on Feministe (new post inspired in part by my comment!):
It’s my job to accept their correction with grace and absorb the information they’re providing me. Go ahead and get pissed off, but I’m going to argue violently with you if you think that when I’m operating with good intentions I should be punished for overstepping a boundary I didn’t know existed.
Why are you arguing violently if you’re accepting their correction with grace?
Hershele:
Yes, of course, and it’s something everyone in the US should learn about in their US history classes. I think for a lot of us, though, at least those of us who grew up in places without a lot of black people, we don’t realize how strongly those issues still affect black people today. We are so ignorant that we don’t realize we’re ignorant.
I’m just wondering how much knowledge is prerequisite to my being able to talk to someone who appears different from me. And what if the other person doesn’t appear different from me, but is? I’ve got bipolar disorder, for example. Someone who doesn’t know me terribly well might start talking to me and say things that might offend me given my background. (I’m thinking here about the recent discussion a lot of places about calling someone “crazy”. Personally, I’ve reclaimed the word.
) It’s my opinion that the only thing that should be expected of us when dealing with others is common courtesy. By all means, use any additional knowledge you might have in order to make the encounter more pleasant. It’s maladaptive, though, for person X to assume that person Y must have some particular kind of prior knowledge, then to interpret person Y’s statement in light of that prior knowledge and proceed to get upset at the implications.
I guess it all boils down to the fact that I have no interest in living in a world where person X can’t go up to talk to person Y politely without fear of offending person X for one reason or another due to person X’s ignorance of some fact about person Y (and no, I’m not saying that the WC was being polite). I don’t want to live in a world where we are seen as and identify as a member of a particular group before we identify as ourselves. I especially don’t want to live in a world where a cigar is never just a cigar.
Bluwhisper:
Hmmm, good question.
I think it’s because of the difference between an online discussion between hundreds of different people and a personal encounter between myself and another person. Were I to have been the WC in Nubian’s story, and were she have to said to me something like, “You know, that’s a really racist comment, not to mention stupid. Why don’t you go look it up in a book instead of treating me like your own personal black ambassador?”, I would probably have apologized and gotten the hell out of there. I would probably have gone home and thought long and hard about the experience, why she reacted as she did. I would probably have come to the same conclusions that I’ve come to here–that it’s a bad idea to talk to black people about anything that might even remotely have to do with race, and since I can never know about everything that is associated with race in every black person’s mind, it’s probably a bad idea to talk to black people I’m not already friends with at all. For example, I just learned about the black people-watermelon thing a couple of years ago. I still don’t get quite what that’s all about, but I understand now that my actions would be very likely to be interpreted as racist were I to offer a black person a slice of watermelon at a picnic. What else is there that I don’t know about? I can never be sure that someone won’t interpret any goddamned thing I say as racist and get pissed off by it. What’s a good utilitarian to do? It would seem that the best way I can minimize suffering all around is to avoid talking to black people, period.
So no, I wouldn’t have argued violently with Nubian. I would take the correction gracefully. I’d then go home, discuss it with my friends and family, get pissed off at it, evaluate Nubian as incredibly tetchy, and end up with some of my stereotypes about black people reinforced. Sad to say.
Why am I arguing so violently now? This discussion isn’t about Nubian’s discomfort with WC’s behavior anymore, not directly. This is not a personal encounter, it’s a debate. It’s about what racism is, and who gets to decide what racism is. It’s not about the best way I should act with a particular person, it’s about how we should interact with other people in general.
I don’t like the conclusion I came to above–that everyone would be better off not talking to an “other” person because they. Something’s wrong with that argument, and I want to figure out what it is.
A definition of racism that you’ll have to accept if you want to have productive discussions on this subject:
racism = racial prejudice + power/privilege
Which is a little different from looking like an American, or a Native American (although that is actually part of my genetic heritage).
Do you really have native relatives, or are you one of those whites with a mythical Cherokee great-great grandmother? (I’m not attacking here - my family has a similar bs story. They’re just almost never true.)
Those people are incredibly rude, and you have every right to be angry. I’d get angry if people randomly fondled me, too.
The thing you’re not getting is that a good number of white people feel entitled to touch a black woman’s hair. It’s not just that they’re indiscriminately rude individuals. It’s that overall their perception of what is and isn’t acceptable in these interactions is influenced by race. Because of the power differential whites may take more liberties with personal boundaries than they would otherwise. I don’t like to compare vastly different systems of oppression like sexism and racism, but it’s kind of like the fact that guys feel entitled to put their hands on women and “guide them”. They may even feel like they’re helping. But the fact remains that they perceive that it’s okay to enter a woman’s physical space in situations where it would never be appropriate to touch another man. It’s not about intent; it’s about their privilege allowing them to more easily trespass.
Ignorant, yes. Racism? Why is it racist? That’s the issue at hand. You don’t start a debate by assuming what you want to prove.
Wait, I thought you wanted to dicuss what it means to take responsibility for your ignorance. But you just want to debate whether or not this woman’s actions were racist?
Sorry, you answered that question while I was typing.
I don’t like the conclusion I came to above–that everyone would be better off not talking to an “other” person because they. Something’s wrong with that argument, and I want to figure out what it is.
I agree with you that your conclusion is wrong. Because I do think you’re making a good faith effort (despite your many frustrating and objectionable arguments), I’m going to think a little while and try to give you a good answer.
…
How can we know whether her actions were racist if we haven’t agreed on what racism is? And I don’t accept your definition so far. I don’t see why the power/privilege comes into the equation. Black people can be racist against white people, even though black people don’t have the kind of power and privilege in our society that white people do. It’s the case that when two groups of people are at odds, the less powerful/privileged one is going to suffer the most, definitely. But the less privileged group can still be racist, IMO.
Heh, yeah, I know. I’m actually applying for my tribe membership card this summer. I’m adopted, and my birth mother got in contact with me a couple of years ago. We talked about our ethnic heritage, and she told me about how she and her kids have their tribal membership cards and have participated in tribal activities a few times. Now that she and I know each other, we can go to the county record office and get my original birth certificate, which I can use to get my tribal membership card (I’m 5/64 Choctaw). I’ve been trying to figure out how to think about this genetic part of me. Being adopted and not looking the least Choctaw, I wasn’t affected by any racial issues. But I think it’s cool that I’m Choctaw, and I want to learn more about it. I grew up in Oklahoma, and I was proud to find out that my great-grandfather was kind of a bigwig in the tribe. There was even a medical center named after him. Anyway, I feel like I want to participate in Choctaw activities somehow, but given that it’s only a genetic thing that ties me to the tribe, would I be a hypocrite if I did so? So it’s a question I’m trying to figure out–does race come from genetics or experience?
OK, that’s fucked up. I had no idea that some white people acted like this towards black people. some people mentioned it on the boards, but I didn’t realize it was a widespread think. That’s extremely creepy.
I know that part of the reason I’m ignorant about some of this stuff–even the thing about how men overstep women’s physical boundaries–is because I’ve never experienced it or even observed it, AFAIK. I need to be careful not to doubt other people’s experiences just because I don’t share them, I know. I don’t doubt minorities are harassed, but I wonder why it doesn’t happen to me. I’m a woman and fat, so why don’t I get harassed (directly, personally, and believe me I’ve trained myself to analyze everything that happens to me for such behavior) for being either? This gives me the illusion that it’s not such a widespread thing as it probably is.
As for how black people get treated differently, that’s not something I remember witnessing personally (no saying it doesn’t happen, and not saying it didn’t happen around me, either). I keep thinking about what things were like when I grew up. I didn’t notice anything growing up, and didn’t even think about the fact that probably half of my friends growing up were some kind of minority ’til recently. Nobody in my family made racist remarks, and I definitely didn’t get any kind of indoctrination that minorities of any kind were inferior (my family is “Northern, bleeding-heart, knee-jerk, liberal democrat”). In South Tulsa/Jenks, where I grew up, had like no black people. I was incredibly insulated from race issues. I didn’t see black people getting treated differently, because I didn’t see black people getting treated anything. I knew that most black people lived in North Tulsa, and saw that it was really ghettoized and poor when I drove around there, but it was the same thing with poor white people in West Tulsa/Oakhurst, where my dad grew up and where I lived for a while.
Here in Norway, I live in a place where the majority of people I see on the streets are Somalian, Iraqi, Palestinian, Kurdish, or Turkish. Now I make a point of noticing how people of different ethnicities interact (or don’t). I read the stuff people write in the paper about immigrants, “immigrants” implied always to mean brown immigrants. The Muslim guys cross the street when I pass by with my dog. Ethnic Norwegians almost never go into the ethnic stores. On my block, one restaurant with tables outside has exclusively Norwegian clientele, while the one on the other end of the block has exclusively brown clientele.
Norwegians are an extremely reserved group, which has made it hard for me to find my way socially here. I’m a lot happier since we moved to this neighborhood, though, because it has so much more life than anywhere I’ve lived before. God, I just love it! I am learning Arabic so I can participate in the culture more. The brown people use the sidewalks and cafes as social gathering places. They smile at strangers. They talk to strangers. They’re friendly. I mean, I actually know the names of and have friendly relationships with the brown people I interact with regularly, like in stores or on the streets. The Norwegian ones that I see just as often…they won’t even acknowledge your existence outside the context they know you from (e.g. the store, the post office). They won’t even pretend they’ve seen you before, even though you’ve dealt with them numerous times before. They’re just cold. If it’s bad for me, I wonder what it’s like for the brown people. The times I remember seeing white people and brown people interact here, the white people act like the brown ones are stupid. I hear the conversation, and usually the brown person’s lack of knowledge comes from the fact that he’s an immigrant. Norwegians don’t treat me like I’m dumb when I ask the same questions. I get so pissed off when I see that. Is there anything I can do about it?
The most interesting thing I’ve learned is that they don’t mind that I’m American. If anything, it makes them want to talk to me more. We commiserate about politics, and they ask questions about why the American government does the things it does. I’ve learned a lot from those conversations.
Heh. I find a lot of your arguments frustrating and objectionable, too.
But you’re not a viper like I am.
Really, thanks for helping me try to figure this out.
Sorry about the rambling and diarrhea of the fingers–I’m kind of manic. I get overexcited and so intense about these things.
I grew up in New York, so I’m fine on racial sensitivity, but common courtesy is going to be a crapshoot .
Regardless of — let’s use the white person/black person example for clarity’s sake — regardless of White’s intent and regardless of White’s thinking, Black will likely hear the question with four centuries’ worth of baggage attached. I guess your issue is, well, what is poor White to do? And I really don’t have a good answer. I guess, for starters, don’t ask questions or make comments about race, or pointing out or emphasizing racial differences, except to one’s intimates. Granted, I’m kinda shy, but I don’t think there’s any question about being black hat White can ask Black in most situations that won’t come across as “hey, why are you so black?”
I’m glad I’m having this discussion at the blog of someone who acknowledges racism exists and is opposed to it, meaning I don’t have to raise my blood pressure explaining why one shouldn’t say racist things i the first place.
It’s a good thing you’re not in the blowjob discussion. Ahem. I don’t think it can be helped. I’m certainly in favor of minimizing such, for want of a better term, identity politics, but one must recognize that it’s the world we do live in, for good or ill.
I know you’re right about how Black will perceive the question. (OK, I have to laught at this naming scheme. I am thus Fat. Or Crazy!) I agree with your conclusion, only the thing I’m afraid of is that White can never know enough to know all the things that might piss off Black. I also think you’re right about the solution. But I don’t like it! I want to be able to talk about this stuff freely, especially about how the individual person is affected by it. I want to talk about it, have a dialogue, and not just get some book-learnin’. Book-learnin’ is so limited: everything is filtered through the eyes of the author. I want to know what the people around me think, what they have personally experienced.
I know the world we live in has these kinds of identity politics. I get to be so evangelistic about changing the world in this way. I want people to see that the things they do cause suffering in the world, and that goes for WC’s actions as well as Nubian’s. WC’s actions obviously caused Nubian suffering, and Nuban’s response has caused me, at least, to get even more gunshy about talking to black people for fear of pissing them off due to my ignorance. I hate that. I understand more now about why it is, but I want it to change.
A big part of my life’s philosophy, what I’m working on, anyway, is to live in the now. Everything that happened before, happened before, and we can’t change that. It simply is, so we must accept it. We can change how we react to it and think about it, though, and we can affect what we do now. It seems to cause a lot of suffering to look at everything in light of race, so I think it’s a bad thing. We need to look into why it causes suffering, and see if we can do anything about that. Sometimes there’s not a solution, but we’ve hardly exhausted the options in this case! Is there a way to deal with these racial issues that won’t further alienation and suffering? IMO, it’s dialogue. I don’t want to think of anyone as “other”.
As for the blowjob thing: just this one thread is exhausting me. Get me talking about feminist stuff, too, especially where dicks are involved, and I would have a meltdown.
You’ve answered your own question here. Because Kortney is black, Kortney is not entitled to the same observance of etiquette that a white person is. Because anonymous is black, people think they can touch anonymous’s hair. Has anyone ever asked you what your genitalia look like, or how you have sex, or how you go to the bathroom? I never got those questions prior to transition, but now I get them pretty regularly. Because I’m a transsexual, total strangers feel entitled to speculate to my face on whether or not anyone would sleep with me.
There are plenty of differences that are not minority-markers that don’t occasion this kind of interrogation. No one has ever gone up to my grandfather and said, “Wow, you’re really old! How old are you? Wow, really? Shouldn’t you be dead by now? Are you gonna be dead soon? Do you feel weak and tired all the time? Are your joints stiff? What are these spots all over your skin? When did you get them? Do you have prostate cancer? I hear old men get that a lot. Do you still have sex with your wife? What’s that like? I hear old men have problems maintaining erections. Do you miss your hair? Do you feel ugly, now that you’re all bent and wrinkly? Because you’re really wrinkly.” Most people would see that kind of behavior as extremely disrespectful. Even though they might not know these things and might be curious, they wouldn’t accost a senior citizen like this.
Hmmm… Is it just the case that being a minority is enough to invite personal questions? People ask fat people a lot how they have sex, how they wipe their asses, how they can have let themselves get that way, how do they expect that anyone can find them attractive or love them, etc.. If a fat person gets asked a question like that by someone on the street, she’s likely to interpret it as sizeist; however, if the question is asked in a workshop at a NAAFA convention, it’s OK. So obviously context has a lot to do with how the interrogee will interpret the question. In all the cases you mention, and including Nubian’s, I totally agree that the questions were inappropriate given the context. And getting asked something about something private like genitals, sex, or defecation by a random stranger is beyond clueless, well into rude territory, and much more likely to be something-ist.
These kinds of impolite behaviors are likely to be whatever-ist, but are not necessarily so. I wonder if my lack of understanding of Nubian’s anger comes from the fact that I try really hard to give people the benefit of the doubt. My motto is “never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity”. I know that I’m generally not malicious in my dealings with other people, so I figure they’re the same as me. Sometimes I wonder. But man, there’s a fuckload of stupidity out there.
So I understand better where you’re coming from. Correct me if I’m wrong: Your point of view seems to be that the privilege of the majority allows them to feel justified in being rude to a minority in ways that they’d never be to another member of the majority. I think this is correct for some members of the majority, maybe even most. I don’t know. But some of us question other people about their differences just ’cause they’re curious and socially inept; this would entail that the socially inept ones would ask inappropriate questions of members of the majority as well as members of the minority.
It seems to me that assuming by default is discrimination, no matter who does it. And that generalizations put into practice are discrimination, too. Everyone is racist, just like everyone must eat (we had to do these things to survive in our EEA), although not all our actions are racist. I also think that many of the traits we acquired in our EEA are maladaptive in today’s society, and we have to be conscientious about overcoming them.
BTW, and I really hope this question is appropriate since you write about transgendered issues, what do you call someone who is prejudiced against transgendered people (other than a jackass)? I also want to say that I’m so glad you’re writing on Feministe now. I’ve always been really interested in gender issues of all types, so it’s really enlightening to get to read your personal experiences and thoughts.
People ask fat people a lot how they have sex, how they wipe their asses, how they can have let themselves get that way, how do they expect that anyone can find them attractive or love them, etc.. If a fat person gets asked a question like that by someone on the street, she’s likely to interpret it as sizeist; however, if the question is asked in a workshop at a NAAFA convention, it’s OK.
If it’s at a NAAFA convention–just like at True Spirit, I’d imagine–said fat person has implied that questions are okay to ask, right? And even then, I’m sure there would be some questions that are not okay, and some language that is not okay. While an asker won’t get smacked down for asking, they could very well encounter criticism of whatever assumptions they betray, or an answer that rephrases the question so as to lay those assumptions to rest. When I start a conversation on my blog about, say, transition surgery, I don’t mind as much when people comment with things like, “What’s a metaoidioplasty?”
These kinds of impolite behaviors are likely to be whatever-ist, but are not necessarily so. I wonder if my lack of understanding of Nubian’s anger comes from the fact that I try really hard to give people the benefit of the doubt. My motto is “never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity”. I know that I’m generally not malicious in my dealings with other people, so I figure they’re the same as me. Sometimes I wonder. But man, there’s a fuckload of stupidity out there.
Which is one approach, certainly, as far as educating people about your own differences. I think that it’s valid on a formal level, as well: “I’m going to assume good faith for purposes of facilitating education.” Probably a simple majority of the questions I’ve encountered wrt trans stuff are either rude questions or precursors to rude questions, so I’m less inclined to start from the belief that whoever is just a well-meaning newcomer. I _also_ have had to deal with the slippery-slope dynamic, wherein “What does ‘transgender’ mean?” heads straight into, “How long have you known?” and from there into, “So, but when you’re with men, you’re a bottom, right?” Answering the first question can put me on an impromptu panel, as it were.
So I understand better where you’re coming from. Correct me if I’m wrong: Your point of view seems to be that the privilege of the majority allows them to feel justified in being rude to a minority in ways that they’d never be to another member of the majority. I think this is correct for some members of the majority, maybe even most. I don’t know. But some of us question other people about their differences just ’cause they’re curious and socially inept; this would entail that the socially inept ones would ask inappropriate questions of members of the majority as well as members of the minority.
Pretty much, yes. But it seems to me that social ineptitude in contexts like this is more frequently a function of prejudice. Maybe I’m assuming here, but I would venture to say that very few people who feel entitled to ask me inappropriate questions would feel entitled to ask my granddad about his sex life as an old person or my mother about her sex life as a married person. So I think that few inappropriate questions can be explained by general social ineptitude.
BTW, and I really hope this question is appropriate since you write about transgendered issues, what do you call someone who is prejudiced against transgendered people (other than a jackass)? I also want to say that I’m so glad you’re writing on Feministe now. I’ve always been really interested in gender issues of all types, so it’s really enlightening to get to read your personal experiences and thoughts.
It’s not a disrespectful question, as far as I’m concerned; you’re asking me in the context of a question about prejudice that has touched on prejudice against transpeople. The word I’ve heard used most often is “transphobe.” “Heterosexist” is sometimes used to describe a worldview that doesn’t include gendervariance as well as one that doesn’t include variant sexual orientation, so “heterosexist” in place of “sizeist” like “transphobe” in place of “fatphobe.” And I’m glad that you’re glad to see me blogging on feministe; I consider that activity akin to being on a panel.
OK, well, cool, Piny. I get it, and I agree with everything you’ve said.
Before:
After:
Because dark colors absorb more heat than light ones, I have often wondered if African American skin gets hotter in the summer than Caucasian skin. In fact, I pondered that with my husband just the other day. Am I a racist for having this thought? No way.
I might have to do a series of posts.
Anyway, I feel like I want to participate in Choctaw activities somehow, but given that it’s only a genetic thing that ties me to the tribe, would I be a hypocrite if I did so? So it’s a question I’m trying to figure out–does race come from genetics or experience?
There is nothing wrong or hypocritical about wanting to learn about your ancestry. Or even in getting your card if you meet the rules for tribal membership. But, as I think you realize, there’s a huge difference between having genetic ties and actually being a Choctaw. Keeping in mind that race isn’t just about biology and that ethnicity isn’t entirely cultural, your connection to the tribe is almost entirely “racial” and not at all ethnic. Personally, I think that if you want to “reclaim” your Choctaw heritage, you should plan on making frequent trips to visit Choctaw communities. Don’t just show up and demand to be included in the most important ceremonies, but go with the intention of interacting with the community. They will teach you what you need to know at a pace both you and they are comfortable with. It’s not like they can hand you a guidebook which you can read and suddenly know the basics of what it means to live as a Choctaw (in fact, while I would encourage people to read books to learn about black issues, I would typically discourage them from seeking information about native americans in books, for many historical and cultural reasons. There are a few good books out there; your elders might give you recommendations). From what I understand, one thing a lot of “white people” don’t get (and I would classify you as one of them) is that being a part of a tribe means being an active member of a living, growing, and changing community. Enrolled or not, you’re not really a part of a tribe if you’re not culturally connected, not engaged with other members of the group (in conversation about important issues, as well as socially), and if you’re only there to observe/take experiences (and give nothing back to the tribe). I would also discourage you from thinking that getting your membership card will immediately allow you to speak “as an indian”, because you aren’t one yet, and probably won’t be one for quite some time (and maybe never), even if you enroll, move to the rez, and culturally immerse yourself. I have a couple friends who have native heritage, but weren’t raised in the tradition. So while they got their cards and try to actively learn about their heritage, they don’t do things like apply for scholarships as Indians or in any way appropriate, misuse, or misspeak about tribal and cultural issues that they don’t feel are really theirs. Does that make sense?
And I don’t accept your definition so far. I don’t see why the power/privilege comes into the equation. Black people can be racist against white people, even though black people don’t have the kind of power and privilege in our society that white people do. It’s the case that when two groups of people are at odds, the less powerful/privileged one is going to suffer the most, definitely. But the less privileged group can still be racist, IMO.
I would say the black people can be bigoted, ignorant, and racially prejudiced towards white people, but generally not racist in any important sense. This may go against both “common sense” and “dictionary” definitions of racism, but if you read anti-racist work and participate in anti-racist activism, you have to accept this as a working definition of racism in order to prioritize the work that needs to be done. Otherwise you’ll have a never ending stream of white people saying, “this one time I was the only white person, and all the black people were being racist…” or “one time a black person called me honky, how is that not racist?” Actually, wanting to talk about the instances where a minority acts in a racially prejudiced way actually diverts attention from the real source of racism, which is the unequal power than whites have vis-a-vis racial minorities. As the essay I linked to points out, individual acts of prejudice on the part of a few black people is just in no way equal to the system of oppression that privileges people with white skin at the expense of racial minorities. That’s why it’s racial prejudice, not racism. I would also like to point out that black people are far, far less ignorant about white people than white people are about black people. The question that Nubian got even presupposed this fact (i.e. “explain how your skin pigment makes you different from normal people”). I might even suggest that while it’s “okay” for white people to be ignorant about black people in the US, it is seldom been “okay” for black people (or other minorities) to be ignorant about whites. The consequences of their ignorance (or ignoring white norms even with knowledge of them) have been as great as lynching, as problematic as losing jobs, and as trivial as social marginalization. So asking that you be excused for your ignorance strikes some black people as highly ironic and racist (by the definition I outlined above - not by the common “you’re a mean bad person who’s trying to hurt black people” definition).
I have more to write, but I’ll leave this for now. How are you feeling about this definition of racism?
There’s no way I can “reclaim my racial heritage” or “be a part of the tribe”, not by a long shot. It’s just not my culture, and I doubt I’ll ever have an opportunity to make it so. I have never even close to considered myself anything but white, even though I’ve always known about my Choctaw blood. I figured that would be kind of…full of hubris? After all, being adopted has taught me that blood and kinship aren’t necessarily tied together. The main reason I want to get my tribal membership card is to support the community and learn more about it. I was thinking more along the lines of giving donations for scholarships, membership dues, etc., rather than asking for them.
My biological mother does still have some family down in the Talihina area of OK, and someday I hope to get to go to a family reunion down there–she’d really like for me to do that. If I get to do that, I would get to meet some family members that are more part of the tribe. The only way I’m going to be involved with the tribe directly is through family members. It doesn’t really make sense to me to do it any other way.
I’m still trying to figure all this stuff out. I mean, I’m just now getting to know my biological family, which is a big adjustment in and of itself. Adapting to the idea that I have some Choctaw blood in me, and that my family sees it as more than just a curiosity, is a whole ‘nother bag of worms. Uh, meaning a convoluted subject for me to figure out, not that it’s a bad thing!
But isn’t this equivalent to those people who come into feminist forums and white about how we shouldn’t be dissecting such trivial subjects as blow jobs and boob-jobs when there are women getting infubulated in Africa? This is not meant as a rhetorical question. Also, I think a lot of whites excuse their racism by pointing to examples of some occasion when a black person called them a honky or whatever. I certainly agree, however, that it’s far from the most important issue.
I’m trying to understand this by relating it to my experience in fat acceptance activism. Sometimes we call the movement size acceptance, and sometimes we call it fat acceptance. Most of us agree that we’re for size acceptance–we don’t want anyone to experience discrimination on the basis of their size, fat or skinny. But what we’re working for is fat acceptance. We see that sometimes skinny people get discriminated against, but it’s a far, far smaller problem than the discrimination fat people face. Here I’m thinking about the skinny people who inevitably pop up in fat acceptance forums and say, “But we get discriminated against too–people are always coming up to me and telling me to eat a sandwich or something!”. Yeah, my heart bleeds for you. Now excuse me while I try to keep my perfectly healthy friend over here from butchering her digestive system in the hope of being able to shop for clothes in the “normal” stores in the mall.
Well, they’d have to be, being minorities; part of the privilege of the majority is not having to know about the minority, right? Even more importantly, black people are minorities who face both personal and institutionalized racism, so it would seem to be a case of “know thine enemy”.
I think I see what you’re saying, and I also think I see why there’s been such a lack of comprehension of the other side’s points in this discussion. Those of us who haven’t been involved in any anti-racist activism don’t think of the definition of racism in terms of power dynamics and who suffers most–we basically equate it with racial discrimination, and mostly personal racial discrimination at that. You’re talking about The System. While every white person who’s not a chump will acknowledge that he or she is a part of The System, simply because of the culture we were born into (cf males and The Patriarchy), we chafe at being called racist because we interpret that to mean that we’re bigots. Is this what you mean? I think I’ve got a more precise vocabulary for this stuff now.
“OK, that’s fucked up. I had no idea that some white people acted like this towards black people. some people mentioned it on the boards, but I didn’t realize it was a widespread think. That’s extremely creepy.”
Yes, it’s very widespread.
http://www.cafepress.com/r_a_n.27413792
But isn’t this equivalent to those people who come into feminist forums and white about how we shouldn’t be dissecting such trivial subjects as blow jobs and boob-jobs when there are women getting infubulated in Africa?
Actually, a better parallel would be people coming into Nubian’s forum and writing about how she shouldn’t have put so much energy into this discussion and should instead be blogging about inequalities in K-12 education or incarceration rates, etc. Say, a comment like “…with rampant unemployment, cyclical incarceration, dismal drug policy and ever-increasing STD infections plaguing the Black community, I do not see how the excessive emphasis on teaching White Americans to discover the racism they promote (but will never notice) helps anyone”, which was posted in response to Nubian’s latest entry.
Your fatness example is better parallel too, and interesting. You have captured one of the dynamics - the power dynamic - which is central to your confusion over definitions of racism. A thin woman may be treated differently because of her size. But in society in general, thinness is privileged. That means when she’s treated differently based on her size, 98% of the time it is positively (which she doesn’t see, as regards as “normal” experience). But when it comes to your discussion, she wants to talk about that 2% of the time, and that’s pretty much all she wants to talk about. Logically, her arguments make sense: she’s treated differently based on size and you are treated differently based on size. You probably realize that there is an important difference between her negative experiences and yours, but maybe don’t know why you feel that way. If you don’t talk about the power dynamic, you fail to address the real problem, which is that thinness is valued and fatness is devalued. (Now substitute color or race for size and whiteness/blackness for thinness/fatness.)
Now do you see why it might be frustrating when a thin person shows up and wants to make the entire conversation about her (few) experiences being treated badly because of her size? It’s just not the same thing. Especially when she tells you that you’re being oversensitive when you tell her about one of your (many) experiences with size-ism. But she really wants to understand size-ism, really! She knows all about it because she’s been treated badly because of her thinness! Now add to it the fact that while fat people may be discriminated against, they don’t have a 500 year legacy of legal, social, educational, etc systematic inequality - covert and overt - enforced by law and violence as well as the more subtle forms of discrimination fat people face.
As for the “educating”, black people put lots of effort into outreach, education, writing about racism, making movies about racism, etc. But white people don’t like to read/hear/see it. They hate black history month. They don’t read black publications. They even complain that potentially great movies and novels are ruined when black people try to make them about racism (even when the work isn’t “about” racism, which is simply a part of the black experience). And so on.
Even in these “educational” situations, Nubian didn’t/couldn’t call her questioner on her stupid question (mostly b/c of shame/hurt/surprise, but also because the WC might have gotten defensive and blown up like some of the white people in the thread did or react like you described you might - slinking off and then seething in anger). Even Piny admits, “Most of the time, in real life, I just answer the questions. Even the ones about my junk. I’m only a badass online.” It’s not an equal dynamic.
don’t think of the definition of racism in terms of power dynamics and who suffers most–we basically equate it with racial discrimination, and mostly personal racial discrimination at that. You’re talking about The System. While every white person who’s not a chump will acknowledge that he or she is a part of The System, simply because of the culture we were born into (cf males and The Patriarchy), we chafe at being called racist because we interpret that to mean that we’re bigots. Is this what you mean?
Pretty much. So don’t worry about black people thinking you’re racist - they already know you are. White people are. It is how we are taught to see and think and believe and behave by The System, as you put it. It’s not really a bad thing if a racial minority calls you on your racist behavior. They aren’t calling you a Bad Person. Most don’t bring it up anyway because they are afraid you’ll get insulted and lash out at them in ways that are more hurtful than what you’ve already said or done in the first place. And you know what? Despite the fact that pretty much all whites are racist (to varying degrees, of course), most black people are still willing to befriend white people or even to answer their stupid questions now and then.
Great discussion, very informative. The last paragraph of bluwhisper’s post, above was one of the best summations of being white and accepting the idea of systemic racism that I’ve read in a long time, maybe ever.
On an irrelevant and irreverent note, I’m still freaking out over Nanette’s post near the top. Who ARE these women who shave their breasts? Seriously! I’m 38 years old and I’ve never even heard of such a thing. What the h*ll?
Those kinds of comments, so holier-than-though, they just drive me nuts. Everything needs to be addressed, the big stuff and the little stuff. If we wait until all the big issues are fixed before we address the little issues, we’re going to be waiting a very, very long time. Pragmatism, people. Not to mention that discussing the little stuff tends to uncover some major truths that we can use to help solve the big stuff.
I must say, I just had to laugh, reading your fat person analogy. Have you been reading our discussion forums? Because what you describe is precisely what happens. I’ve been on fat acceptance discussion boards for five years or so, and I’ve seen exactly what you describe happen over and over.
Re: the educating….this is an issue that is incredibly frustrating to me, especially since I’ve moved abroad. Americans allow themselves to be exposed to such an incredibly narrow selection of the available media out there. People watch CNN and think they know what’s going on in the world; people watch Fahrenheit 9/11 and congratulate themselves for supporting “alternative” cinema. It’s not all their fault–because of the way The Media works in the US, people don’t even know what’s out there, let alone how to get access to it. Didn’t Piny recently talk about going into Barnes & Noble and finding like ten books on transgender issues, half of which were “gladiator porn”? We’re ignorant and don’t even realize it (and I can certainly vouch for the fact that the process of realizing and admitting your ignorance can be quite painful.
). Of course it’s a universal problem, but I do think Americans are more guilty than most.
I really appreciate your–everyone’s–willingness to stick with me through this discussion. I’ve got a lot better understanding of the situation now, sort of a springboard I can use for learning more. So, is there any particular work that you can recommend that I read to learn more?
I haven’t been reading your forums. I just summarized what happens in a lot of discussions on race and substituted terms to fit a frame of reference you seemed comfortable with - and evidently the analogy works. Which reminds me:
[we] don’t think of the definition of racism in terms of power dynamics and who suffers most–we basically equate it with racial discrimination, and mostly personal racial discrimination at that.
I think that many whites don’t see systematic racism because whites don’t suffer from systematic racism. We all “get” personal racial discrimination, because we all experience that. Most white people never move past a bad-individual-with-ill-intent understanding of racism.
That’s probably one of the reasons feminist women of color get so frustrated by white feminists: white feminists are able to understand and discuss systematic sexism (patriarchy) and the difference between patriarchy and the personal discrimination based on sex that males complain about, but many white feminists can’t seem to make the leap between systematic sexism and systematic racism, or at least not without a great deal of hand-holding. Again, white people don’t face it, and I would even go so far as to say that they are taught not to notice.
We’re ignorant and don’t even realize it (and I can certainly vouch for the fact that the process of realizing and admitting your ignorance can be quite painful.
).
Yes, this is true. There are contributing factors to that ignorance, yes, but in the end, Americans need to take responsibility for their ignorance, and so do white people. You can’t really blame the rest of the world for failing to educate America, especially since most Americans choose not to seek out information about the rest of the world. Their power and privilege has allowed them the ignorance they possess (although I think recent events might be showing Americans some of the costs of their ignorance…even though most don’t see it that way, unfortunately). And this is why it is also not the duty of black people to educate white people. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own ignorance.
So, I think it would be beneficial first for you to read a little more about white privilege. Mostly, it should help you recognize your blind spots and give you language for why it is so hard for you to understand and talk about racism.
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh
Shinin’ the Lite on White Privilege by Sharon Martinas
White Privilege Shapes The U.S. and More thoughts on why system of white privilege is wrong by Robert Jensen
Defining “White Privilege” and My White Problem — And Ours by Kendall Clark
And any number of essays from TimWise.org. I would especially recommend: What Kind of Card is Race?, The Trouble with Tolerance, and No Such Place as Safe
You should read these essays so that you develop a better understanding of the baggage you come with when you come to discussions of race. But as important as is it to question and understand your white privilege, it is only a first step.
It is easy to get bogged down in the circularity of questioning white privilege. As Thena in Maine began to notice in the awesome comment you linked to, it is a bit frustrating and confusing to have white privilege and to always have to bring it with you when talking about race or when you interact with people of color. Your white privilege is both unasked for and inescapable. You can’t stop being white. You’re part of the system, and no matter what you do, you’re always going to be in a loaded position in regards to race, as well as capable of doing things that can be seen as and probably are racist. You can either be someone who accepts that, admits when they make mistakes, and works against racism, or you can get mad, refuse to learn more since you’ll always be at risk for making mistakes, and retreat into a haze of ignorance and white privilege. Personally, I think the former is preferable.
Again, getting called racist isn’t quite the bad thing you originally thought it was. Racism is a bad thing, don’t get me wrong, but you shouldn’t take it as something you need to get defensive over. I think you should still take it personally, but only in the productive sense that “as an individual, I can personally take steps not to contribute more to The System than I have to.” That’s what taking responsibility is.
Also, in the “No Such Place As Safe” essay above, Time Wise points out how ridiculous it is that white people want to be assured by people of color ahead of time that nothing they say will be taken as “insulting and tactless” or “offensive” or “racist” given that white Americans are the most powerful people in the world. And while “people of color rarely feel safe discussing race amongst members of the dominant group…[B]lack and brown folks know that race is a touchy subject, and yet they engage in race dialogue (whether formal or informal) as a matter of survival: they have to do it, safe or not, because the alternative is to continue neglecting an issue that is far too important to their everyday lives.” You don’t really have a right to demand “safety” from a person of color when talking about race. And that’s good for everyone.
So, finally, getting back to your question:
I don’t like the conclusion I came to above–that everyone would be better off not talking to an “other” person because they. Something’s wrong with that argument, and I want to figure out what it is.
I think you have a better idea of why “a WC can’t get a break” and why maybe that’s okay. But all that aside, the problem with your argument it is that it is unfair to ask anyone you have a relationship with to give you a “pass” from hurting them. You don’t avoid having friends because one day you might say something “insulting and tactless” or offensive or stupid that would hurt their feelings. It’s as simple as that. Maybe what you and someone of a different race gain from friendship with one another outweighs the hurt that you cause from time to time. It’s not that hard to grasp, I don’t think.
Anyway, you can learn some of the concrete things that annoy/hurt/anger people of color by looking at:
Black People Love Us (A fictional white couple and their flubbed attempts to relate to black people.)
Racist White Folks Bingo, Stupid White Folks Bingo, White Liberal Bingo
Don’t look at them as lists of things you should memorize and never do, but try to put yourself in a person of color’s shoes (so to speak) and think about why you would find any of those things annoying or insulting. It’s not about “learning the rules”, which would only give you a superficial grasp of what is going on; it’s about understanding, respecting, and empathizing with their perspective.
But in the end and most of all, the best way to understand is to actually listen to people of color, and not just about what is hurtful. It’s also important to listen to them about their passions and their concerns, their ideas and hopes and priorities.
Hope that has been helpful.
Hannah
After your “god fucking forbid” comment, I was pretty much done with trying, and I pretty much still am. I’m glad there were some other people who were willing and able to step in. Good luck with your learning process.
This is an interesting process to watch, although of course it is far from over. I don’t know if it is ever really over? I would imagine that the uprooting of racism and deeply seated thoughts and privileges one isn’t even aware of could be a lifelong process. Or should be, anyway.
I’m glad to see it progressing, though… like anonymous, I was mostly inclined to just let it be.
fish:
Just a group of wild and crazy women. Well, and me
I’d never heard of such a thing either, and I have been half inclined to think they were just saying that to shock me (which I would not put past them at all) but now Sarah says she’s heard of women plucking their breast hairs, which sounds even worse, so I guess maybe it’s true!
Also, I just thought I’d mention that I want to be bluwhisper when I grow up.
Hiya, I’ve been lurking for a few days since I saw the trackback over at Pandagon. I’m very glad to have found this discussion here, because the one over there had (last time I looked) degenerated into people not listening to each other very loudly.
It’s a bit of a light bulb to realize that at least some of the time people are talking about systemic racism rather than personal bigotry. I do think sometimes these get conflated, especially when something upsetting has occurred.
A few thoughts on white privilege - one of the reasons white privilege is invisible to me is that, where I live, it’s checked at the door that reads Whites Only. I live in a smallish city in central Maine and the population here is overwhelmingly white. Anecdotal evidence: I started paying attention a week ago when this discussion flared up, and I have seen a grand total of 5 African-American people since last Saturday: two young men changing a tire, and three small boys on bicycles. I worked three days at a client company with 12 employees, all white, and had no non-white walk in customers. On two different days I went shopping at a total of six stores and interacted with about 10 store employees, all white, and saw maybe 30 or 40 customers total, nearly all white. (I don’t recall seeing anybody not white in the grocery store, but it’s a big store and I have trouble imagining that everyone in that huge building was white even though it’s entirely possible.) I filled my gas tank at a station with all the pumps full, and all the othe drivers and the clerk were white. The city employees who picked up my garbage Thursday were white. The mail carrier is white. The hired man who mows the grass at the apartment block down the hill is white. The kids in the city pool last weekend were mostly white (I think there was a Latino family there when I walked past, too.)
My whiteness doesn’t give me any leverage in interactions with other white people - the power dynamics there are typically gender (I’m female), social/economic (I’m working class), and appearance based (I’m fat, too) - and while my educational level is an arguable advantage (college degree) it’s usually not enough leverage to outweigh class and gender, so I come to most interactions with strangers expecting to take the non-dominant position. I have lots of practice at doing the subordinate shuffle. It’s very, very weird for me to get into an interaction where the other person assumes I have social advantage and that I’m using it against them. If I do have white privilege, I don’t know what it looks like, where I put it, or what to do with it.
Privilege is a loaded word anyway. I’m not sure what it means to anti-racism activists (referring to systemic racism not personal bigotry, because the latter is what I hear when someone points at me and says racist), but in the contexts I normally work in, “privilege” is something that They have, which We haven’t got, and want to take away from Them. Emphasis mine. Class privilege is the most common one I work with - the assumption taken by people with money that people without money are there to do their bidding, or that wealth is evidence of superiority. (Not universal to individuals, but group generalizations, just in case there are any wealthy philanthropic sorts reading this.) I want wealthy people to understand that there is no difference between them and me except the number of digits in their bank accounts; that I am just as intelligent, just as educatable, just as worthy as they are. That inheriting a power position doesn’t make you a better person.
I expect there might be a similar motivation to people who are anti-racist activists?
Since my world is so overwhelmingly white, I’m sorry to say that race issues aren’t my immediate priority. If I have an arbitrary 10 hours to invest in learning how to interact with cultural groups I’m not a part of, I could spend it learning about the African-Americans I almost never meet… or I could spend it learning about the Quebecois (French-Canadian) tourists who come here and spend their money, or the Abenaki (local Native American tribes), or for that matter I could go learn Maine history since I only moved here a year ago and interact with native-born Mainahs every damn day.
Also, on the unrelated subject of breast hair, I don’t pluck mine these days, but I did when I was with a previous boyfriend who griped that I had more chest hair than he did.
Thanks for the links, Hannah. Sorry your post got held for moderation–my blog software is set to hold for approval any post that has over a certain number of links.
You know, I’ve never heard anyone draw the analogy between sexism and racism before. As soon as we started talking about that, your points made a lot more sense to me. I’m surprised that other feminists wouldn’t “get it” as soon as the parallels are pointed out to them…but then I have to remember how we’ve all got blind spots. It’s the same thing with classism–some of the articles written by feminist authors for upscale magazines and newspapers address the problems of upper-class women in ways that are extremely devaluing of the work women in lower classes do (I’m thinking of America’s Stay-at-Home Feminists and Bitch Ph.D.’s response to it, for example). I read stuff like that and it just infuriates me. These women are totally missing the point, trying to address the symptoms instead of the problems, mainly because the symptoms are the only problems they have to deal with in their everyday lives. For example, it’s all well and good to tell women that they need to keep the power balance equal in their marriages by choosing not to abandon their careers for their children. But that’s not addressing the problem–the problem is that the work of staying at home with children is not valued, and therefore the people who do it are powerless. And then there’s the fact that choosing one or the other isn’t even an option for the vast majority of women. I think there are probably parallels that can be drawn here between this issue and the issue of race. What do you think?
Here’s the thing that scares me: Nubian’s post and Piny’s support of her reaction got me really frustrated. Nubian’s reaction seemed so maladaptively over-sensitive and typical of relations between black people and white people. I was tired of feeling like I had to pussyfoot around these issues when talking to black people and just accept that anything they said was racist, was in fact racist. That’s why I wrote my rant. I just said “fuck it”, and decided to lay out all my frustrations with black people’s stated perceptions of situations like these. I decided to say what I really thought, and pull no punches–thus my tone, “god fucking forbid”, etc. And from talking to other white people about this situation in particular and about race in general, I know they share the same frustrations I expressed in my original post. White feminists say these things, good white liberals say these things, people who aren’t bigots say these things, educated whites, whites who correct others’ expressed racism, etc. And they say this stuff with just as much or even more vitriol than I did. You know all this, of course: I had to laugh at the bingo pages you pointed me to, Hannah, ’cause so much of that stuff was familiar. We think we’re the good guys, but damn…it scares the hell out of me that we’re so clueless about the stuff you all talked about, and this when it affects such a large proportion of our population. We don’t see what’s going on right under our noses (Anonymous, that thing you told me about people touching your hair freaks me out every time I think of it. The unconscious attitudes that it implies…) We’re so totally a part of the problem we purport to decry and we don’t even realize it.
I also appreciated your analogy between America’s ignorance due to its privilege and power and black people’s situation. I feel pretty hopeless about America’s situation in the world. I think the only solution to America’s problem here is that it’s going to have to lose that power and privilege. Do you think it’s the same for white people? I mean, how do you solve this problem of self-reinforced ignorance? How do you get people to take responsibility when they don’t realize there is anything for which they have to take responsibility?
Anyway, I’m reading up. Also about minority issues in Norway, ’cause I want to know how this stuff translates to Norwegian society.
I totally agree. FWIW, I didn’t feel that I personally was asking for a pass, or demanding “safety”. I most definitely think people need to take responsibility for the way they make others feel, regardless of intent. (That’s part of the reason why I make an effort to be so frickin’ polite–IRL.
) We should avoid causing others suffering, period. That’s the ideal I’m working towards, anyway.
Nanette: No, it’s not a process that is ever going to be over. This crap is bred into us, fear of anything we perceive to be other. I always have to laugh when people call something “the last acceptable prejudice”, you know what I mean? We’re not even close to being aware of all the stuff we’re prejudiced against. I don’t think anyone ever stops putting people into the “other” category, even though we might learn to ignore our prejudicial tendencies. Being fearful of anything we perceive to be different from us was built into our design a long time before we were humans, and while that was adaptive at one point in time, it most definitely isn’t anymore. We’ve got brains now, and we need to use them. Most people don’t like doing that, though, it seems.
Hannah: Yes, it’s been helpful! You and the other people here have really changed the way I think about this stuff. You must be so exhausted! I am, but exhilarated, too. It’s so much easier to communicate with people when you’re speaking the same language.
Thena, I can relate to so many of the things you’re saying. I think our experiences are the norm for people in many communities–race issues aren’t a priority because we live in white communities. Now, why our communities are so white, that’s an interesting thing to think about. Man, I remember when I went to Atlanta a couple of years ago, my first visit to the “Old South”. I noticed that all the people in the blue collar jobs were black, and the people with the white collar jobs were all white. That freaked me the hell out.
I grew up in Louisiana (raised in a predominantly-white suburb of New Orleans, college in Baton Rouge) which has a much larger African-American community, and I am frequently startled around here by “Even the XXXXXes (sanitation workers, yard men, fast-food employees, teenage-boys-with-their-pants-hanging-off, whatever) are white!” kind of thoughts. I know these are artifacts of systemic racism, both the fact that the area where I live now is so overwhelmingly white and the fact that on a subconscious level, based on my youth in the South, that I expect a disproportionate correlation between poor and Black.
As for why this area is still so white, the basic reasons are economic: people don’t move here, they move away if they can afford it. (I’m here because I was chasing a man who couldn’t afford to leave, natch.) The population base are the descendents of white settlers over the last 350 years (English, German, Scottish, Dutch earlier on, later the same French population that settled maritime Canada and a later migration wave via Quebec) and the Native tribes they killed off and/or intermarried with (it gets complex and my knowledge of local history is incomplete.) People here are mostly poor and overwhelmingly identify as white, including many people with Native ancestry but no connection to a currently organized tribe. Currently, the majority of the state’s population lives in the southernmost counties, and I expect that is also where the state’s nonwhite population is concentrated, since that’s where the urban areas are. The only people who live in rural areas now are the rich, looking for vacation homes, and the poor, who have been there for generations and can’t afford to leave.
Racial demographics vary. This was a point that somebody brought up over in the Pandagon argument that I don’t think got looked at very closely in the heated debate. Something that didn’t get brought up but which is also relevant is that custom and social structure vary. I grew up in an area where, although there was a sizeable African-American population, racial groups did not mix - a legacy of Jim Crow laws, I’m sure, but there was no law saying whites and blacks can’t date / hang out / eat together, whatever. We just didn’t. It was an unspoken rule that was understood by everyone: stay with your own kind. (For that matter the majority white group got split along class lines, too.) I could navigate that kind of society even if I didn’t like it, because I understood the rules. I also broke them occasionally, like the rule against riding the city bus while white
It’s hard for me to think of whiteness as correlative with privilege since my formative understanding of my race has been mostly in the form of White People Don’t statements: White People Don’t go to that neighborhood, White People Don’t do their hair that way (two pigtails, max, and no you can’t have it straightened), White People Don’t talk that way, White People Don’t ride the bus (you’re supposed to be affluent enough to have a car), White People Don’t eat that kind of food… the list goes on and on. Couple that with the nearest large city (New Orleans) being majority-Black (as the world saw during Hurricane Katrina) and having a significant number of African-American elected officials, business leaders, etc. (I can’t think of a single white mayor of New Orleans during the time I lived within broadcast range of New Orleans TV - some were lighter-skinned than others, but as far as I recall they all identified as Black) and I had a really hard time as a child and young adult understanding why Black people were considered a minority. There were, after all, more of them than there were of us. Sure, most of them were poor, but most of us white people were poor too. (When you thumb through the Katrina pictures, look at the Mississippi gulf coast ones as well. Poor rural whites, poor urban blacks, we have more in common (class) than what separates us (race).)
Oh, where to start…
I think I’ll tell a little story first. I’ve been answering questions like I’m an authority, and I’m no infallible expert.
A few years ago, a friend (who is African-American) and I decided to sublet an apartment together for the summer. She was working days, and I was working overnights, which meant that I would be getting up as she was getting home from work. One day she came home and wasn’t in a very good mood. I could tell something was up, but she didn’t want to talk about it. She banged around the kitchen for a few minutes, went into her bedroom, and shut the door. I got a bowl of cereal and sat down to read my book. The walls in our apartment were really thin, so I could hear her call her sister and start to vent. Within about a minute, I turned on the tv so that I wasn’t listening in, but I had already overheard why she was upset. It turns out that a (white) co-worker at the department store where she was working had come up to her to ask her why she didn’t make more of an effort learn to “speak properly” around customers, and this little comment had both deeply hurt and deeply angered my friend.
I’m not sure if or how my friend answered the woman, but I’m guessing she didn’t rip the woman a new one, although she probably wanted to. I don’t know if I need to explain to you why the comment was so offensive, but it bears repeating that the comment had several features in common with the question Nubian got. That is, the woman framed the question in such a way that if my friend were to give any sort of direct answer, she would be confirming that her way of speaking is not proper (just as Nubian would have been confirming that her skin is not normal). It was a bit more hostile than the question Nubian got since it also implied that my friend was a little slow and/or lazy since she couldn’t “speak properly” (i.e. like a white American) already. But my friend is an individual who in fact speaks English AND Spanish. The question was also ignorant of the fact that most African-Americans can speak several different and equally valid/correct versions of American English, from the ones they use with their family and black friends to the ones they use when applying for bank loans, and if the woman knew that my friend could speak several different Englishes, she was denigrating my friend’s semi-formal-yet-comfortable choice as lazy and inferior. It also was profoundly “othering”, a way of forcing my friend to be hyperaware of and to explain on demand one of the things (language instead of skin) that marks her as “black” to white Americans. There are probably a whole bunch of other things wrong with the statement that I don’t get myself or cannot explain adequately.
And here’s where I show what an ass I am. You know what my first response was?
Quite frankly, I was miffed that my friend didn’t confide in me even though I was right there and asked her what was wrong. Instead, she went and called her sister. I am a good, understanding white person! I know why the statement was racist! These are your words, but I was thinking, I want to be able to talk about this stuff freely.
I want to bring in something else you said earlier:
On Nubian’s conclusion post, James wrote:
[bluwhisper would add: and the focus shifts to white people debating whether the comment was even racist and white people arguing about what racism is and white people stating that they have emotions too and they are angry and frustrated that people might think they are racist if they ask a racist question!].
For some reason, I wasn’t able to directly respond to my friend with compassion. My reaction wasn’t about my friend’s discomfort with her co-worker’s behavior. Instead, my reaction was about me and my feelings as a white person. It took me a couple of days, but I realized that she was right in calling her sister instead of talking to me, because I wouldn’t have known how to comfort her.
It was really painful for me to admit that. I didn’t know how to help my friend deal with the pain of experiencing racism. My whiteness hadn’t taught me that. In fact, it gotten in the way of me being able to relate directly to my friend when she was hurt. We think we’re the good guys, but damn…
Nubian’s post wasn’t about being mean to or making fun of white people. It was a way of processing racist pain. And suddenly all of these white people show up with their own needs and agendas, and she has to attend to their needs and their feelings instead of her own.
So, Thena, I do have a similar motivation. I want white people to know that people of color are just as intelligent, just as educatable, just as worthy as they are. That inheriting a power position doesn’t make you a better person. But I also saw how racism dehumanized my friend and how it dehumanized me in my response to her.
So, in light of this one story, let me go back to the fact that Sarah didn’t feel she was demanding “a pass.”
Sarah, you said both that I want to be able to talk about this stuff freely and you also said, Which means that each group of “others” has to take responsibility for providing [information], without getting their panties in a wad.
You may not have been conscious of the fact that you were doing it, but basically your argument trimmed down comes to this:
I want black people to tell me everything about race and racism anytime I want to know something, and I want to be able to tell them that their stated perceptions of the situation are wrong when they frustrate or implicate me. In fact, I want to be able to say whatever I want to about race and racism without feeling constrained or like I have to “pussyfoot” around. In order for me not to feel frustrated, I don’t want black people to express hurt or anger, especially not with anything I personally say or do.
How is that not “a pass”? How can a real, open dialogue happen when you want to set its parameters so that your irritation and your desire to not “pussyfoot” is more important than a person of color’s need to talk about and deal with the pain of racism? I’m not calling you out personally for this. This is a common pattern, since, as you point out, many other white people express the same sentiment. Actually, it kind of makes me want to cry that so many white people don’t see how dehumanizing it is for everyone, both for the people of color who are discouraged from being honest and open about their feelings and for the white people who regard their own needs as so important that they can’t see or relate to the hurt and anger of people of color. As long as white people dismiss legitimate annoyance, frustration, and rage as wadded panties… as anonymous wrote. I’m going to try to finish her sentence. As long as you dismiss legitimate annoyance, frustration, and rage as wadded panties, that’s not a real conversation or relationship between white people and people of color - that’s a manipulative and dehumanizing white privilege power trip.
So, I’m going to ask that you think about what it means that you’ve stated several times in comments that you think Nubian’s reaction seemed so maladaptively over-sensitive.
You must be so exhausted!
Yes.
Nanette:
I don’t know if it is ever really over? I would imagine that the uprooting of racism and deeply seated thoughts and privileges one isn’t even aware of could be a lifelong process. Or should be, anyway.
You got it.
See, this is precisely why I got irritated in the first place. The comment your friend got was extremely and necessarily judgmental, what with the word “properly” and all. But I didn’t, and still don’t, see where the comment Nubian got asked was necessarily judgmental. I don’t see the question as loaded. I don’t see how comparing two skin colors implies that one is the default or normal, while the other one isn’t. I saw a white woman wondering how her experience differed from that of a black woman. Black skin is different from white skin in a couple of ways that might possibly affect temperature, after all, and I don’t see how acknowledging that implies that one is worse than the other.
Now, what Piny cleared up for me was that the vast majority of times a black person gets asked a question about racial differences, it is meant in a judgmental, derogatory manner, and that most people who would ask a black person questions like these would never ask questions like these of a person with a “normal” difference, e.g. an old person. He did admit, however, that in a minority of cases, the questioner is simply socially clueless, and would therefore ask improper questions of everyone, regardless of race or anything else. What I got out of Piny’s explanation was that it was understandable that Nubian reacted as she did, simply on the basis of the probability of the white chick being racist, exploiting her white privilege to demand a black person satisfy her curiosity, etc.
But I wasn’t there. I don’t know what was going on in WC’s head, what she really meant, consciously or unconsciously. Nubian was, and the only record we have of the experience is filtered through Nubian’s perceptions I figure that the comment coming from WC probably was racist, in the new way I’ve come to understand the term. Where we differ, though, is that I don’t believe that that kind of a comment is necessarily racist.
However, now, this comment from Kendall Clark in My White Problem — And Ours, really got me thinking:
I think these are extremely good points, and points that had never occurred to me before.
You ask me later in your post:
I see two ways of looking at the situation now. I do think Nubian’s reaction was maladaptively overly-sensitive–for her as a person. I maintain that it’s not a good idea for any given individual to go around assuming the worst, even if prior experience tells her that it’s likely that the situation was yet another example of the worst.
I do not believe, now, that Nubian’s reaction was maladaptively over-sensitive for her as a black person, for the reasons stated in Kendall Clark’s essay. Whether or not Nubian’s personal gains as a black person outweigh her suffering as a person…that probably can’t be calculated. Given Clark’s quote, however, the experiences of black people would seem to indicate that reactions like Nubians do generally result in more good than suffering. Therefore it’s a good, adaptive decision for Nubian to get upset. Although I think it’s important to note that the outcome of this calculation is going to vary from individual to individual.
As to what happened on the various blogs, I think the context here was important. If a friend came to me suffering because of a comment someone made to her, I would see that this would be a most inopportune time to debate whether or not the comment should have upset her. She’s upset, period, and that’s all that matters in that context. However, Nubian posted this comment on her blog. IMO, that’s the key to why everyone reacted as they did. It seems to me that when someone posts something on a blog, the point of that action is to invite discussion.
Thus my comment:
And I still stand by my comment.
James says:
But that wasn’t what was happening. It seemed to me that everyone agreed that racism is wrong. Nubian was assuming that the comment was racist, and that was what we took issue with (largely, I believe, because we failed to understand the term “racist” as Nubian and other anti-racist activists define it).
You add:
Yes, that’s what happened. But as I stated above, I don’t see that to be a problem in this context. It was Piny’s post that got me into this discussion in the first place. Piny’s post wasn’t about Nubian’s racist pain; it was about how posters on Nubian’s blog reacted to her racist pain. It was about the issues we’re talking about here. My rant on my own blog was in response to Piny’s take on the situation. I did not go to Nubian’s blog and demand that she clarify why she interpreted the comment as racist.
Anyway, I agree with you that when someone’s hurting and wants to be comforted, she should be comforted. There is a place and time to analyze whether or not her reaction was adaptive, but that isn’t it. And that she felt racist pain is likewise not debatable.
So I agree with this, wholeheartedly:
For me, however, the question was figuring out why Nubian reacted the way she did, ’cause I didn’t understand it. I understand it now. I wouldn’t have understood it if we hadn’t focused on the definition of racist. that’s not about white people, it’s about the way Nubian and other black people perceive the world.
That was obvious to me–I hope it was to other people, too.
We didn’t know that this was Nubian’s way of processing racial pain. And I maintain that posting about such experiences on a blog invites debate, not compassion. Especially, as I said before, if your blog is widely read, and predominantly about racial issues as opposed to personal issues (this is where my comment about her nick factors in).
And she absolutely did not have to attend to her posters’ needs. She could have added that she was only looking for compassion and not controversy when she posted about her experience (I’ve seen others do this on their blogs before). She could have either moderated or closed the comments. But you discuss your racist experience on a blog that deals with racism, you’re going to get comments about the larger meaning of the experience.
OK, I admit that this was a low blow–that is the kind of thing I think but shouldn’t write, because, you’re right, it’s not going to encourage open dialogue. It sets a nasty tone. I understand why I felt that way, though, and I don’t feel that way anymore. And it hasn’t got anything to do with Nubian’s being black. I got pissed off that she was making an assumption that I saw as maladaptive. That’s a major source of suffering in the world. It’s misunderstanding. But I see now that Nubian’s reaction wasn’t maladaptive. My understanding is going to help me cause less suffering.
Nope. Not even close, and as a matter of fact, I’m sad to see that you’ve misunderstood me to such a great extent. Now, given that you believe that I may well be unconscious of my underlying motivations, nothing I can say will convince you, so for me to state the following is more or less pointless. But I’m going to say it again:
One important point here is the need to differentiating between black people as a group and individual black people. It is not the responsibility of any individual person to educate another person. I know that anything I say can offend another person, regardless of my intent. I’m going to have an opinion about whether or not they “should” have gotten upset–if their reaction was adaptive–but I’m not going to say anything to them about my opinion, certainly if the individual isn’t a good friend of mine, and at least not at that point in time if the individual is a good friend of mine. Analyzing people’s reactions, in some way, is incredibly important if we want to learn how to avoid causing them pain. But again, there’s a time and a place. Context is crucial.
And I do want to be able to say anything I think about race. In certain contexts! Are you seriously telling me that I shouldn’t be able to? “Pussyfooting” ain’t gonna fly in the context of a debate. We’ll never learn anything that way. But “pussyfooting” translates to politeness in personal encounters. I am not going to accost any random black person I see with my questions and opinions on race. Again, context is crucial.
Black people must express their hurt and anger. That’s the only way to solve the problem that’s causing it. I wish Nubian had told the WC off in some way or another. It would have been better for both of them, regardless of WC’s intent, for the reasons Kendall Clark stated in the essay quoted above. I may feel frustrated, but that’s par for the course when people discuss such controversial issues. And I’ve gotta deal with my reaction–decide whether or not it’s adaptive, analyze it, and do something to fix it if it’s maladaptive–just like black people have to do. This is what has to be done in order to make progress.
So a real, open dialogue can happen when no-one pussyfoots around, and everyone is forced to deal with, accept, and analyze their reactions and the actions of others. IOW, nobody gets a pass. Ever.
Heh, maybe I pushed you a little too far with that last post.
However, Nubian posted this comment on her blog. IMO, that’s the key to why everyone reacted as they did. It seems to me that when someone posts something on a blog, the point of that action is to invite discussion.
This is interesting, but it centers around a larger question about the intended audience of blog positings. To be fair, Nubian posted this publicly in a blog, but she did so in her personal blog, which has a particular audience of mostly POC and allies. Personally, I think she was confiding - in her own readers. Since Feministe and Pandagon picked up the discussion and brought it to their largely white readerships (I’m guessing without her permission), it is debatable for me whether Nubian wanted to “invite discussion” amongst readerships of external white feminist sites. I’m sure she could have more heavily moderated comments, but I’m guessing she figured her own readers would understand the situation (which they did - most of her frustration came from commenters who followed trackbacks to her post). That Nubian felt the need to continue participating in conversations both on her site and on external sites that didn’t understand her experience or take into account her needs, well, to me anyway it indicates how powerful the “black people must educate white people no matter what” dynamic is.
And I maintain that posting about such experiences on a blog invites debate, not compassion.
Maybe you’re right - blogs are a prickly medium. But I think I may have support for my hypothesis that ingrained and institutional racism decreases white people’s compassion for black people who feel pain because of racism, since Nubian got compassionate responses from PoC readers of her blog. Also, a lot of the white apologist commenters seemed to have compassion for the poor WC. In fact, Ohioboy wrote, “I still have to say I sympathize with the white woman in this scenario”. To me this shows that the ability to identify with and empathize with one of the participants in Nubian’s blog post was in fact racialized, not a result of the “argumentative” format of blogging. Personally, I think it’s dehumanizing that we white people have been trained not to empathize with black people who experience racism. We’ve been taught that, you know, since if we did a good job of empathizing with them, how could we live with ourselves when we allow and perpetuate an unjust system like racism? If we really want to relate to people as people across color lines, we have anknowlege and work to rid overselves of this racist garbage that we are seeped in.
Nope. Not even close, and as a matter of fact, I’m sad to see that you’ve misunderstood me to such a great extent. Now, given that you believe that I may well be unconscious of my underlying motivations, nothing I can say will convince you, so for me to state the following is more or less pointless.
I’m not saying it was your intent. I’m not calling you a Bad Person. I’m just saying that that is what your general line of argument sounds like, especially to people of color. I don’t think you came up with this argument on your own, since many many whites in my life have made and do make the same general one. (I’m from Nebraska/Kansas and grew up in largely segregated communities, so it’s not like I don’t relate to what your and Thena’s experiences. Been there, done that, and still struggle with it, in fact.) I’m saying that this argument - “it’s my right to be totally comfortable talking about race, and PoC’s possible reactions to me have to be suppressed if you want me to engage in dialogue about racism” - does not come from you, Sarah. I’m saying that you picked it up from The System. Now, that line of thinking was must more prominent in your original post and in your earliest comments, so I do think you’ve started to move away from it over the course of our conversations. I just wanted to highlight it and make you aware of it, because I hadn’t addressed it specifically.
So a real, open dialogue can happen when no-one pussyfoots around, and everyone is forced to deal with, accept, and analyze their reactions and the actions of others.
It’s a nice idea, really, it is. I wish it could be that way. But this comes from a perspective of privilege. I wish it were the right of everyone, but alas, the fact is that for PoC, it’s almost impossible not to pussyfoot around when talking about this subject with white people. Because of the power dynamics. Imani asked, “I wonder how many dominant group members truly understand what a tricky rhetorical bob-and-weave speaking as the Other is?” Thena called it “the subordinate shuffle.” While talking about ignorant and loaded questions about headscarves on Muslim woman, Heirobobulus said, “While I’d love to respond with a smackdown, I’m conditioned to politely tell them that I choose not to cover, and then change the subject. It’s worse when a coworker or boss asks the question, because Smackdowns would not be in my best interest. And that frustrates me more.” As I wrote earlier:
It’s nice to say that you don’t want people of color to pussyfoot around, but you can’t really ask that of them until you eliminate the inequality caused by racism in our society. Again:
They have to do it, and they have to do it in a pussyfooting way too much of the time, trying to make their experiences palatable to white people because when white people get offended or pissed off their power has consequences for people of color, which means people of color are forced to cut out the anger to avoid alientating the white people they have to “educate”. I was a willing participant when I went through this, you too are asking and willing to learn, and see how long this is taking? Now just try to get a PoC to educate an unwilling white participant like Chris from the Pandagon discussion and see where not pussyfooting (or even pussyfooring, unfortunately)gets you. (The answer is nowhere, and he will end up more sure of his prejudices and privileged perspective than ever.)
I figure that the comment coming from WC probably was racist, in the new way I’ve come to understand the term. Where we differ, though, is that I don’t believe that that kind of a comment is necessarily racist.
I don’t know if this will convince you, but I am a white chick myself. In fact, I know the WC protocol for comparing skin color. See, one WC says either “OMG I am soooo pale” or “OMG I got soooo tan yestserday”. Then she pushes back her sleeve and sticks out her forearm. “Look” she says, and waits. The other WC says something like “Wow,” and then either “you are” or “I bet you I’m…paler/tanner”. Then the other WC sticks out her forearm too. They hold their arms next to each other so that they can compare. NO GRABBING IS INVOLVED. I think I was only grabbed once in this scenario, which I’ve seen and participated in hundreds of times unfortunately, and the girl who grabbed my arm and forced me to compare was the most popular/alpha girl in my middle school clique (ie, much more powerful than me), who then proceeded to mock my paleness.
Anyway, I don’t think that talking about skin color or even race with a person of color you don’t know very well is necessarily off-limits, and I don’t think it will necessarily be interpreted as racist (although on such a loaded topic, with the unequal power dynamic, with little experience having these conversations, and without you having come to the conversation having done even basic reading about race, the odds that you’ll “other” the person of color are of course greater). I found this reaction to Nubian’s post in a livejournal discussion, and I thought it would be helpful for you to hear it. Kerrickadrian wrote:
I would like to know, actually, why white people think that asking about skin temperature was, actually, learning about or talking about race. In fact, race is a social construct that has a few dubious connections to biology. Almost all “African-Americans” are at least biracial (black AND white), if not even more multiracial. Why is “learning about race” only asking questions about skin pigment or hairstyles or rap? Those are hardly the most important things about the African-American experience. They are also stereotypical and superficial.
I also worry that your speculation over whether Nubian’s response was personally adaptive or maladaptive misses the point. (Although, good use of the essay btw. That was a good and important thing to understand - that “The costs of racism’s perpetuation far outweigh the prices of mismarking it.” Good call.) First of all, it is up for Nubian to decide that, not for you to debate it. It’s Nubian’s life, and she knows when her reactions are or are not proportionate to the offense and if they are or are not interfering with her ability to lead her life.
Let me use a feminist example. I’m not going to take the time to think of an exact parallel for Nubian’s situation, but let’s say you’ve had a bad day and your male co-worker (or boss) makes a comment about you having PMS. You get angry (whether or not you actually respond). Does you getting angry and posting about the incident on your blog with a largely feminist readership invite men to come and debate whether or not the incident was sexist? Do men get to debate whether your angry response is or is not maladaptive? Is your anger even maladaptive? Does it even mean that your relationship with your male co-worker is forever broken? (I’d guess probably not. You can hate the system and still like people who are a part of it. Again, black people are far better at making a distinction between a dislike of The System and opinions about individuals influenced by The System than white people with a tentative understanding systematic racism are.)
I bet Nubian is exposed to many, many situations every day that could be construed as potentially racist. Hello institutional racism! Things that she probably could get upset over if she wanted to. I bet you she makes healthy and adaptive choices about where to spend her energy and outrage all the time. In fact, I bet she’s extremely good at it, considering she’s successful enough to be in a lily-white graduate program. And so she was mad at this situation and made a venting blog post to sympathetic readers. In the end, it wsn’t the bike incident that was most hurtful to her. It was all the posts from white people arguing that she was blowing things out of proportion. In her words, “grr. i’m more angry now than i was that day on my bike.” In fact, the only thing maladaptive that she did was post her experience in a blog where white people could comment on it, even though you ultimately found it productive. Delux wrote: “Situations like what happened in your blog about that crazy ‘hot skin’ question are why I pretty much only discuss race and related issues with other people of color now. And I’m having a great time sharing and learning from other poc about their experiences and communities.” All of the defensive reactions that came from white privilege are precisely the reason PoC feel the need to pussyfoot around about race.
Anyway, my conclusion is that if we want to have real, open conversations about race, we need to end racism. That’s why I do stuff like this.
I want to start with your last sentence, ’cause I think that’s the most important thing to remember:
I could not agree more. That’s why I do stuff like this, too.
I think what’s happening here is that we agree on what needs to be done, although we disagree on the best way to do it.
Indeed. I felt a little queasy after posting my original take on the situation, even though like five people read this blog. I knew that putting my opinions out there in public invited controversy, especially if I was going to ping Piny’s post.
I figured it was likely a debate like this would ensue, and that I’d piss people off.
Well, it depends on the blog, for one thing. I would have to accept that if I’m putting my experience out there for public consumption, yeah, I’m gonna have to expect to have to defend myself. I feel that I have to be prepared to defend absolutely everything that I express to another person. And sure, men get to debate whether or not my response is maladaptive. People are allowed to talk about whatever they want, wherever they want to, although they’re going to have to accept the fact that they’re also going to have to deal with any reactions they might get. My anger is maladaptive or not in the same way as Nubian’s–do I benefit more from educating the men and therefore potentially furthering the cause of racism, or do I benefit more from chilling out and not giving myself an ulcer? That’s also what I had to decide when posting my rant. I figured, what with the pingbacks and all, this was going to be a painful experience. But I hoped that what I had to gain would outweigh that pain. And it has. For me personally, and I hope also in a general sense, e.g. how my new understanding of the situation will affect my future behavior, the good that will come as a result of people reading this, and me telling my friends and family what I’ve learned here.
I think you’re right, absolutely right, although I see the ultimate cause in what was adaptive in our EEA. We had to be able to kill an other without having an attack of conscience–we had to “other” the other–because otherwise the other would exploit our conscience to kill us before we could kill them. That’s what I was talking about when I said that this stuff was bred into us. So it is dehumanizing–it’s an animal instinct. It’s the kind of instinct we need to learn to repress if we’re going to live ethical lives.
Which brings me to this:
See, when I’m arguing here, or arguing over anything for that matter, the form of the argument is really important to me. I want to look at the ultimate causes of behavior, because I think that the only way to change behavior is to understand where it’s coming from and treat the cause. I see this particular argument in a larger perspective–that of how we are to live in general. So I think about stuff like the psychology and sociology of the situation, but also the sociobiology, the ethics, and the logic of the situation. This is the way I approach all controversies, even those within my own head. Why are things really the way they are?
And again, I maintain that I do get to debate it, ’cause it’s out there in public. Generally, when someone posts this kind of thing in a public space, I’d assume that she was inviting debate, precisely for the purpose of getting other people’s opinions about her actions. Its not necessarily the case that an individual knows whether or not her reactions are maladaptive, proportionate to the offense, or interfering with her ability to lead her life. Not by a long shot. People are constantly fucking up their lives because they react in a maladaptive way. That’s the essence of failed human relationships, after all, and that’s the main cause of unhappiness for humans. It’s why we have therapy, you know?
OK, good to know.
I think you’re being a little condescending here. You say that the statement above is my argument, while I’ve been saying repeatedly that it’s not my argument, and I don’t see that it ever was. Do you think it’s possible that you keep attributing this argument to me because you’re so well “trained” in anti-racist politics that you believe that every contentious white person holds this opinion?
Well, I’m allowed to dream, aren’t I? I wouldn’t be arguing for it if it were already the case.
OK, I don’t believe in rights. They’re constructed by humans in order to further their personal agendas. Some actions may be more dangerous than others–e.g. a black person speaking her mind about race, and yes, it is more dangerous for a black person to speak her mind about race, for the reasons we’ve discussed and for reasons put forth in some of the essays you linked to–but fuck “rights”. The concept is useless in reality. I see the idea of “rights” being used to promote racism, not end it. I see it being used to promote all sorts of evil. “Rights” are used to try to bring “others” up to a more privileged level, while at the same time confirming by default that those levels do exist as a property of the people themselves and are not merely a social construction. I don’t need a “right” to vote, speak my mind, control my body, etc. if I’m the same kind of being as you are.
It depends on the context. Somewhere, someone’s got to be able to discuss this stuff openly, or we will not be able to end racism because we will not have understood the full extent of the problem. This open discussion doesn’t have to involve situations like Nubian’s, and I’d argue that it would have been nigh on pointless for Nubian to try to educate the WC, for all the reasons we’ve discussed.
Oooh, this is extremely condescending. So you went into this with the purpose of merely “educating” me? You didn’t come into this situation with an open mind, figuring that maybe I might have a point about some of my concerns? Were that the case, I wish you’d have told me that from the start–it would have saved me a lot of typing.
And, yet again, explain to me why WC’s behavior was necessarily racist as opposed to socially clueless.
*sigh* Again, why is “asking an intrusive question of a relative stranger predicated on the assumption that biology works differently for people of different races, invading personal space, and making unwanted physical contact” necessarily about race? The world “race” in the above quote was introduced by Kerrickadrian. She–and all of you, and this was what the debate was about, for me–assume that a question about differences usually associated with race and aimed at a person of another race is necessarily a question about race. And again, I’m saying that’s not necessarily the case. You’re all assuming your conclusion, and that is precisely the kind of “argument” I cannot accept. Tell me why it’s necessarily the case, don’t just tell me it’s necessarily the case. You’ve told me why it’s probably the case, and I agree. But I don’t see you telling me why it’s necessarily the case–I only see you asserting it.
This is a very telling question. We did not see the question as being about race–we were frustrated because Nubian made that assumption. You perceived that we were making the question about race for the same reason Nubian did–because you’re trained to see all questions asked of a person of a different race about differences usually associated with race as racist.
So answer me this, once and for all:
Are all questions asked of a person of a different, less privileged race about differences usually associated with race necessarily racist?
I know. Which is why I’m generally not comfortable using the word. I ended up using it here just as a shorthand…which in discussions like these, can be dangerous and misleading, I know. I like the term “ethnicity” better, or even just referring to people by the color of their skin for this purpose, since that’s how racists draw the lines.
That’s another thing Americans don’t understand, something that I found really interesting when I moved here. Afghanis, Palestinians, and Iraqis, they don’t hate Americans. They like Americans. They hate the American System. Americans think these people hate us personally…thus, the defensiveness. I think this is always going to be the case when there’s a power differential, for all the reasons we’ve discussed here.
Yep. I agree.
Hmmm…but didn’t we white folks get castigated for implying that this would also be the easiest thing for us to do? Nobody said this was supposed to be easy, and likewise, nobody said everybody has to be a part of the debate.
I have avoided doing so (because I want it to be beside the point), but I want to state that I’m not a bigot. I don’t deny that bigotry exists, I don’t deny that racism exists, I don’t deny that white privilege exists, and I don’t deny that I possess it. I know that racist things go on under my nose without me realizing it ’cause I don’t have to. I know that I behave in racist ways without even realizing it. I deny that race exists. I think it’s weird that people make such a big deal about something that is–or was, to begin with–so purely superficial, like you said. It blows my mind. I mean, WTF, all this because A’s skin is darker than B’s skin? And it’s not as if all people who are considered or consider themselves to be black have darker skin than “white” people.
Look at the rules of Apartheid in South Africa, for example. There’s an excellent dissection of this issue in Sorting Things Out by Bowker and Star. My master’s thesis was about prototype theory in linguistics–the idea that categories in real life do not conform to the kinds of rules we like to believe they do. Categories are fuzzy and fluid, and there’s absolutely no way to define whether or not a given object will belong to a particular category. “Race” is a perfect example of how trying to draw lines of demarcation in order to make perfect categories causes trouble. I’d be willing to scan in the Apartheid section of Bowker and Star’s book if you’re interested. It’ll get your blood boiling, though.
So here’s where I’m coming from. I want to end racism because it’s maladaptive and it causes suffering. It’s understandable, but it’s an extremely dangerous relic of a time long past. White privilege exists, and we’ve got to figure out how to penetrate it. But I think that when activists imply or assert statements like “all questions asked of a person of a different race about differences usually associated with race are necessarily racist”, it majorly weakens their argument, if only for a purely reason: universal statements are impossible to prove in the real world. Making universal statements is a Bad Idea, especially when it comes to psychology. Kendall Clark again: “I happily accept the burden to validate my claims to mark racism.” You’re making this universal claim, yet failing to validate it. Piny’s explanation made perfect sense to me, and I left it feeling that if only we white folks understood what Piny had explained, we would nullify one of the major sources of animosity between races today. But you have thus far failed to validate your claim, and you’re in a nasty position because you’ve made a claim that’s almost certainly impossible to validate. I’m on your side, Hannah. I want us to reach a consensus, if possible. Do you see my point?
Thanks for sticking with me, by the way. You’ve made a lot of progress, I think, but I’ve been trying to continue pushing you to the edge of your comfort zone, just so you know.
I’ve also been thinking that we’ve pretty much reached the end of productivity (for now) by just limiting the discussion to your perceptions, Nubian’s incident, and the blog threads that surround it.
I think this is a really good idea for you. I’ve always found it helpful to learn about a situation where you’re not personally so invested in what is, ya know? I mean, as an outsider, you can see what is happening to both the white Norweigans and the racial minorities there without feeling like you’re part of either group.
Also, I want to bring back this point I made earlier, which I think is the most important part of all the junk I said:
I’ve been talking about people of color think this and people of color think that. But really, they aren’t a monolithic entity and hold a variety of perspectives and argue about different issues and what those issues mean. If you want a fuller and richer understanding of what “people of color” are thinking, you need to find out what they think. I would suggest reading POC blogs, since they are probably easiest for you to access right now.
You might find it easiest to start at Granny Gets a Vibrator.
Granny is a white woman doing a Black Media Immersion Month. Here’s what she wrote today:
In her posts, she’s been providing lists of links. I read some of the blogs and news sources she links to. Highly recommended.
Oops, I was typing while you were typing. I’ll try to respond in a few minutes.
Take your time. I am getting ready to go to bed now (it’s almost 3 here–damn the time difference! It’s totally making my schedule unstable). Tomorrow I’m gonna be out on a boat celebrating “St. John’s Eve” AKA Midsummer together with my in-laws, so I won’t be able to get back to you til ‘tomorrow night at least, maybe not ’til Monday. Whooo am I gonna have some interesting discussions with them!
It’s why we have therapy, you know?
Heh. I’ve been incredibly unhappy with therapy and its failure to treat actual causes. But maybe that’s just me.
Its not necessarily the case that an individual knows whether or not her reactions are maladaptive, proportionate to the offense, or interfering with her ability to lead her life. Not by a long shot.
So who decides what is maladaptive?
I’m just skittish on this one because so many times it’s men that decide what’s maladaptive for women. Or white people deciding that the behavior of black people maladaptive and telling them to get over racism while they are perpetuating it. Even family members have their own agendas when discussing whether the behavior of the people they are close to is maladaptive. I don’t see how there is a solution to deciding what is and isn’t maladaptive without using a subjective measuring stick for what “normal” or “happy” is, a standard that is usually decided by those in power. Does that make sense?
Oooh, this is extremely condescending.
I apologize for the way that sounded. I should not have said it like that. I just meant this is a long and confusing process for all of us, even when we’re willing. As I’ve said several times, I’m still working through this stuff myself, so, I am learning along with you.
Are all questions asked of a person of a different, less privileged race about differences usually associated with race necessarily racist?
In short, no. It is not necessarily racist.
Actually, this is a really complicated question even apart from race. I’ll take a lit crit approach.
You know the intentional fallacy right? The error of assuming a text means what its author intended it to mean? That means we can’t decide the meaning based on what the author or in this case the WC speaker meant.
What are our other options?
Reader reception?
That means who ever interprets the words decides the meaning. So, it’s Nubian who gets to decide. But if she posts in on her blog, do the readers of the blog get to decide? How do they decide? Who has the most convincing argument? Is it a majority rule? Is it who can shout the louded and longest? Is it whoever is deemed most wise and knowledgeble? If these “answers” conflict, and they often do, then it can’t be just the reader who gives it meaning.
Do we go back to deciding that the meaning is in the words themselves, and decide that if we just look at the utterance enough times, studying the words carefully and parsing them out that the true meaning will become apparent? I think many people came to the conclusion that it wasn’t just in the question itself, but in the way it was framed and in the context in which it was uttered that gave it its meaning.
Literary critics argue about all these approaches and others, sometimes giving more weight to one, sometimes to another. I don’t know that we really can make that call with 100% certainty.
I think it really comes down to what we decide to value more. Is it the intention of the speaker, regardless of how it becomes racist after it enters the world in a loaded context? Is it meaning as it is perceived by the person who it is addressed to?
Intellectually, no, such an utterance is not neccessarily racist, because there is no absolute and universal way to determine the absolute meaning and resulting significance of something as complicated as a speech act, even though there are better and worse ways, of course.
If someone wants to make a decision about whether it is or isn’t racist, though, it is a judgement call based on what we value.
Personally, and this is my human, subjective response, on a close call like this, I think the decision should go to the person or persons most affected by it. In this case, I do think Nubian gets to decide. I think that in situations where a question is asked of a person of a different, less privileged race about differences usually associated with race, that the person who is asked gets to decide.
I actually would like to read the Apartheid section of Bowker and Star’s book.
I meant to post this picture
When I said, “I do think Nubian gets to decide,” I meant that she gets to weigh:
the speaker’s intentions or perceived intentions
the actual words and gestures and what they meant both
literally and
abstractly
the context of the speech act
in what setting
the relationship between the parties
whether it followed social norms or violated them
the impact of the utterance on the less privileged person/people
the place of the question in its socio-political and historical context
I think it bears repeating that it’s better to overmark racism than undermark it. I also think that PoC generally go out of their way NOT to mismark racism, for reason discussed in the “What Kind of Card is Race” essay.
So, while not all questions asked of a person of a different, less privileged race about differences usually associated with race are necessarily racist, the question that Nubian was asked was undoubtedly racist. Is that clearer?
I hear ya. It totally depends on the kind of therapy and your relationship to the therapist, though. I’ve been to numerous therapists over 13 years for my bipolar disorder, and I’ve just now found one that’s really been helpful. In the old-style analytic tradition! And I have to speak Norwegian! Which I’ve been speaking for 7 years, so I’m relatively fluent, but jeez–you really start feeling the limits of your vocabulary when you need to talk about very specific things and feelings.
In the US, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is considered the gold standard. It works pretty well for superficial problems like “How do I talk to my spouse without alienating him?” or “How do I assert myself at work?”, bit it’s nigh on useless for serious psychiatric ailments. Because of the way healthcare is done in the US, psychiatric treatment consists mostly of running the patient through a set series of drugs in a set order, a visit to the psychiatrist once a month, if the patient is lucky, otherwise occasional visits to a clueless GP for med adjustments, and maybe 12 sessions with a Cognitive Behavioral therapist. The emphasis is very much on patching up the problem by learning “coping skills”, which is necessarily going to be a short term solution.
I was really skeptical to analytic-style therapy at first, what with the free association and ideas about the subconscious, but it turns out it’s mostly about examining the deeper causes of your behavior, causes you might not necessarily recognize at once, plus applying logic to your actions to examine them for consistency. Which is all right up my alley.
Anyway, point being, some kinds of therapy can be useful for some kinds of ailments.
OK, that was quite OT.
Good question. I think mostly it has to do with whether the person is better off as a result of the behavior in question. Usually it’s up to the person to decide, but sometimes it’s obvious to outsiders when someone is cluelessly fucking up her life. Heroin addicts, for example. The way I look at it, adaptive actions lead to less suffering. Every individual her to decide for herself how to balance her suffering with the suffering of others (it would be asinine to donate so much money to charity that you end up in the poorhouse, for example). Basic preference utilitarianism as I understand it, but I’m far from an expert here.
Anyway, the individual is the final arbiter, regardless. Nobody should be able to make your decisions for you, ideally.
OK, good. This is what I was looking for.
Ain’t that the truth? These are major issues in linguistics, philosophy of language, philosophy of mind… I think an important thing for everyone to remember is that questions like these are incredibly complex and it’s not necessarily the case that there’s a right answer or even a good practical solution. We want things to be solvable, black and white, cut and dried, but the real world isn’t like that. It’s such a hard lesson to learn.
See, I still disagree. Probably racist, but not undoubtedly racist. Because you’re essentially saying that racism is defined by the victim. Which is not the same as the definition we agreed upon earlier: “racism = racial prejudice + power/privilege”. If each person gets to decide for himself what racism is, it’s going to be impossible to have a discussion on the subject (e.g. the problems we had earlier before agreeing on a definition). I think it’s imperative to agree on a definition in order to make discussions on the subject productive, but I know that this is incredibly difficult.
So it seems to me the conclusion is that we can never know for sure whether something is racism, both because of the problem of intention and because of the difficulty of reaching a consensus about the definition of racism (same thing with feminism). However, like you said:
In which case, a hard and fast definition isn’t really necessary, and deferring to the victim’s judgment is the most adaptive solution. The most adaptive solution doesn’t require nailing down what is or isn’t racism. And that’s a damned good thing.
http://www.bestweekever.tv/2006/07/18/icymi-barbara-still-puzzled-by-black-women/#comments